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Davide Marchesi
Different framerate issues
on Dec 8, 2012 at 5:27:17 pm

Hi everyone,

Yet another topic on matching frame rates. Searching the forum I found answers to some of my questions, but still I haven't been able to figure out the best way to go for my case.

I have some footage with different frame rate, 50% at 23.98 fps and 50% of it at 25fps. It actually doesn't matter whether my final export is at 23.98 fps or 25 fps.

The footage shot at 23.98 was shot with a better camcorder and overall it's the footage with the best quality, thus I would be happy not to compress it and leave it at the same frame rate (23.98).

The quality of the rest of the footage instead is not as good (although still HD 1980x1080). and I thought I could conform its 25fps to the 23.98fps of the rest (either with compressor or with cinema tools). Eventually I'd have all the footage at 23.98 fps.

However, I feel that it might work better to do it the other way around and conform the footage at 23.98 to 25fps.

Considering the tools I have available (Compressor and Cinema Tools), which way would you suggest me to go?

Thank you very much

Regards


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Nick Meyers
Re: Different framerate issues
on Dec 8, 2012 at 10:34:04 pm

compressor will take a long time, and might not look so great
CInemaTools is instantaneous looks good but wil alter your payback speed, and audio pitch.

if these are for multi clipping, or if sync between the cameras is important, then Compressor is the only way.

using CinemaTools, if you have the same people on both cameras, then the change in audio pitch will be a bit disturbing, but isn't insurmountable.
with not very good pitch correction in FCP, it is a genuine "fix it in the mix" situation..


nick


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Rafael Amador
Re: Different framerate issues
on Dec 9, 2012 at 4:27:38 am

As Nick says.
Conforming (CinemaTools), do not process the picture, so whatever option you chose you will end up with the same original quality.
Compressor only makes a real Conforming when you chose the "Rate Conversion: Fast (Nearest Frame)". Any other option will process the image.
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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Nick Meyers
Re: Different framerate issues
on Dec 9, 2012 at 7:31:36 am

I haven't used Compressor to do this myself.

Rafael, the "Rate Conversion: Fast (Nearest Frame)" option,
does that just drop or repeat frames to make up the difference?
simply dropping the shot into a miss=matched FCP timeline will do the same thing.


nick


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Rafael Amador
Re: Different framerate issues
on Dec 9, 2012 at 8:40:54 am

[Nick Meyers] "Rafael, the "Rate Conversion: Fast (Nearest Frame)" option,
does that just drop or repeat frames to make up the difference?
simply dropping the shot into a miss=matched FCP timeline will do the same thing."

No if you set "Set duration" other than 100%.
If you set:
- 24@25
- 23,98@24
- etc
you do not drop, don't add any frame, you get a plain Conforming of the file.
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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Davide Marchesi
Re: Different framerate issues
on Dec 9, 2012 at 9:21:20 am

Thank you guys for your help. I was actually going to do a multiclip thus it seems that I'd better use Compresor for this. However, I am not really concerned about altering sound as I have a separate audio file I will synch to all my footage.

Would there be any difference conforming 23.98 footage to 25fps footage and conforming 25fps footage to 23.98? Any particular reason that you know for which I should prefer one way over the other?

Thanks


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Rafael Amador
Re: Different framerate issues
on Dec 9, 2012 at 10:11:13 am

[Davide Marchesi] " I was actually going to do a multiclip thus it seems that I'd better use Compresor for this. However, I am not really concerned about altering sound as I have a separate audio file I will synch to all my footage."
Wait, wait!!
If you intend to sync audio with files that have been conformed, the audio will end up slipping out of sync because video won't be playing anymore at the original speed.
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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Davide Marchesi
Re: Different framerate issues
on Dec 10, 2012 at 8:07:30 pm

Right, thanks Rafael, I didn't realise I was missing that step. What other solution am I left with then?

I am clearly starting to think that I should use the 25p conformed footage as little as possible in my final edit, but I might still need a few clips from it.

Would it be possible to slightly speed up the footage after conforming it? I feel that it'd just be a big mess...


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Nick Meyers
Re: Different framerate issues
on Dec 11, 2012 at 12:56:58 am

you have to run it though compressor and do a frame rate conversion.


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Rafael Amador
Re: Different framerate issues
on Dec 11, 2012 at 3:27:28 am

[Davide Marchesi] "Would it be possible to slightly speed up the footage after conforming it? I feel that it'd just be a big mess..."
Right.
You will mess everything and you won't achieve the main objective of conforming, that is to not process the footage.
As Nick says, retime the p25 to p23,98 in Compressor and avoid audio syncs issues.
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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Davide Marchesi
Re: Different framerate issues
on Dec 11, 2012 at 10:03:56 am

Thank you guys, I must have misunderstood Rafael's post because I was going to use Compressor but I thought that with workflow I would jeopardize my chance of synchronizing the audio. So conforming with Cinema Tools is going to present me with an audio synchronization problem, but not Compressor right?


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Rafael Amador
Re: Different framerate issues
on Dec 11, 2012 at 10:55:20 am

Compressor is able to perform two different operations:
- Standar Conversion
-Conforming
[Davide Marchesi] "Thank you guys, I must have misunderstood Rafael's post because I was going to use Compressor but I thought that with workflow I would jeopardize my chance of synchronizing the audio."
With Compressor you'll have no problem as long as you keep "Duration 100%" (Standard Conversion).
Then the audio will keep at 48Khz and you won't have no problems on syncing.

[Davide Marchesi] "So conforming with Cinema Tools is going to present me with an audio synchronization problem, but not Compressor right?"
Conforming with CinemaTools or Compressor (Duration different than 100%), you won't be able to get things in sync because video/audio won't play at the same speed than the audio files.
The audio on the Video files won't be anymore 48Khz. No way to sync.
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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Davide Marchesi
Re: Different framerate issues
on Dec 11, 2012 at 11:02:32 am

Perfect. Thanks for clearing it up.


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Davide Marchesi
Re: Different framerate issues
on Dec 12, 2012 at 12:07:15 pm

After some testing, I figured that if I use Compressor to convert the 25fps footage to 23.976fps the result is acceptable, but it takes a very long time.
Toi avoid converting all my 25fps footage, but only the clips I need, would it make sense to edit my sequence with the original footage (with the two different frame rate) and only when I know what clips I'm gonna use in the final edit, convert solely them fro 25 to 23.976 fps?
Then I import the converted clips in FCP, use them to replace the original 25fps clips and export everything at 23.976fps. Does it makes sense or will I encounter problems I'm not foreseeing at the moment?


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Nick Meyers
Re: Different framerate issues
on Dec 12, 2012 at 12:17:06 pm

it could work.
but you won't be able to use MULTICLIPS.
you'd have to use a more cumbersome method of having the clips stacked,
and cutting away what you don't want.

then you could media mange the 25fps tracks,
run the reduced sections though compressor, and eye match them back in.

another method could be to use compressor to convert the footage, but use the FASTEST method.
or indeed you might be able to use FCP to do this.
the results will have a repeat frame every second.

with some music videos that would be a good thing!


nick


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Rafael Amador
Re: Different framerate issues
on Dec 12, 2012 at 3:22:20 pm

As Nick says.
To do multicam you need all the stuff to have the same specs.

As Nick suggest, make test with Compressor set to Fast (nearest frame).
That's done fast. Is just about dropping one frame per second.
As he suggests, you can try that as well dropping the p25 stuff on a p23,98 sequence, but in this case, open the clips speed (leave it at 100%) an uncheck "Frame Blending".
FC will just drop frames without reprocessing the whole picture.
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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Davide Marchesi
Re: Different framerate issues
on Dec 12, 2012 at 4:26:20 pm

Cool, once again thanks for the input guys. I have moved away from the idea of the multiclip because I can't do it with all the footage that I have anyway. I'll probably have to synch every clip with the audio but it's gonna be a 5-min thing so it won't be too long hopefully. Thanks a lot again.


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