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Nested sequence needs to be re-rendered. Why?

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Vic Noseworthy
Nested sequence needs to be re-rendered. Why?
on Nov 26, 2012 at 6:26:15 am

Hi, folks!
Having a problem:
When I nest a sequence in FCP7, the sequence won't play unless I render it (even though the original sequence is already rendered). I'm new to FCP7, and never had this problem with FCE4. Am I doing something wrong?
FYI: Original footage was shot on pro-sumer camera and ingested into ProRes422LT (I do a lot of motion graphics) using log and transfer.
Any advice you can offer will be very much appreciated!
Thank you!
Vic


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Dave LaRonde
Re: Nested sequence needs to be re-rendered. Why?
on Nov 26, 2012 at 6:11:16 pm

Is there any specific reason why you MUST nest the footage?

Nesting timelines in FCP is one of those of those things that sounds great in the FCP promotional literature but doesn't really work as you may have been led to believe.

If there's any way to avoid the nesting, you should do so.

Dave LaRonde
Former Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Vic Noseworthy
Re: Nested sequence needs to be re-rendered. Why?
on Nov 26, 2012 at 7:46:42 pm

Really, Dave? Holy Cow!! (no pun intended, this being the Creative Cow forum!)
That really surprises and disappoints me. I've done it often in FCE4 and, for the most part, it has worked pretty well. Does the problem have something to do with the codec (AIC vs. ProRes)?
The reason I nest is I do two versions of weddings for brides: a full-length version, and a condensed "Highlights" version. I usually edit the full-length sequence down to the key moments of the wedding; that way, I don't have to make two complete versions from scratch.
I do a fair bit of compositing, so I upgraded to ProRes so as to maintain quality. I've never had any (or, at least, very little) trouble nesting sequences in FCE4. Hmmm... now I'm puzzled and confused! Does this problem have anything to do with the chosen codec? Is there some other way you know of to get around the problem?
Thanks very much for your expertise.
Vic


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Nick Meyers
Re: Nested sequence needs to be re-rendered. Why?
on Nov 26, 2012 at 11:31:25 pm

i would have thought that it would be easier to do a cut-down from a COPY of the full sequence.
you have all your edit points there, so it's easy to jump to them, and mark in / outs around them
plus you can remove transitions at will.

nevertheless, nesting shouldn't require re-rendering unless there is a sequence miss-match
is your media a different frame size to your sequence?
that could be the issue.

aso how are you making the nests?
edit sequence A into sequence B?
(that could cause re-rendering if you have clip / sequence miss-matches)

try instead: DUPLICATE sequence A,
open that, select all, and Option C to nest selection.


nick


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Vic Noseworthy
Re: Nested sequence needs to be re-rendered. Why?
on Nov 27, 2012 at 2:24:44 am

Thanks for your response, Nick. I will surely give that a try!
Another reason I nest sequences is because it makes it easy to put transitions between the segments. For example, I cut together the "Bride getting ready" and save the sequence. Then, I cut together the "Groom getting ready" and save that sequence. Then, in a separate sequence, I butt the two sequences together and I'm able to put whichever transition there that I like.
I find this helps me to keep things organized, too.
There's, no doubt, other (and perhaps better) ways to work. I've been doing it this way with FCE4 (as mentioned), however, when I started doing it in FCP7, I've been having re-rendering problems.
I will definitely try your suggestions. Thanks so very much!
Vic


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Dave LaRonde
Re: Nested sequence needs to be re-rendered. Why?
on Nov 27, 2012 at 2:46:46 pm

[Vic Noseworthy] "Another reason I nest sequences is because it makes it easy to put transitions between the segments."

Hmmm... that could be risky, especially if you use a nice, long, romantic dissolve. It's too easy to catch part of adjacent shots in the dissolve.

I stick with making a duplicate timeline and cutting it down.

Dave LaRonde
Former Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Tom Matthies
Re: Nested sequence needs to be re-rendered. Why?
on Nov 27, 2012 at 4:43:52 pm

Nesting doesn't work!?
WOW, I must be really lucky. I use nesting all the time without issues. I use it to reduce a multi-layer segment to a single track. It does work in FCP. Why do you think it doesn't work? Just curious, Dave.

E=MC2+/-2db


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Dave LaRonde
Re: Nested sequence needs to be re-rendered. Why?
on Nov 27, 2012 at 5:55:42 pm

Okay, let me put it this way: it doesn't work WELL, and if you strive for consistency, you can't count on it in each and every situation.

It wouldn't be the first time a software developer (name any of 'em) made performance claims that didn't live up to reality.

Dave LaRonde
Former Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Vic Noseworthy
Re: Nested sequence needs to be re-rendered. Why?
on Nov 27, 2012 at 7:54:11 pm

Hey, Tom. When you nest your sequences, do you have to re-render the sequence within the sequence? That's the problems I'm having. And, the re-rendering can take significant time. And, it's weird because the original sequence has been rendered and plays fine. Then, when I drag that sequence onto a new sequence, it requires re-rendering. Not so with you???
Thanks,
Vic


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Vic Noseworthy
Re: Nested sequence needs to be re-rendered. Why?
on Nov 27, 2012 at 7:59:23 pm

Hey, Dave. Thanks for your response.
When you say:
"I stick with making a duplicate timeline and cutting it down."
what exactly do you mean? Do you mean you simply 'Select All' and copy the entire sequence, then paste it into a 'master' sequence (and, then, do this with every sequence)?
Thanks,
Vic


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Dave LaRonde
Re: Nested sequence needs to be re-rendered. Why?
on Nov 27, 2012 at 8:20:54 pm

  • Locate the full-length sequence in the FCP Browser.
  • Highlight it.
  • Go do Edit>Duplicate.
  • Double-click on the newly-duplicated file.
  • Start deleting shots.
  • Save the project frequently.
Clear enough?

Dave LaRonde
Former Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Nick Meyers
Re: Nested sequence needs to be re-rendered. Why?
on Nov 27, 2012 at 10:30:42 pm

Vic, you never answered the question about settings:
do your clip settings match your sequence settings?
is Sequence A the same settings as Sequence B?

i have been using nests for compiles recently,
and have had no problems with re-rendering.


dave said:
"I stick with making a duplicate timeline and cutting it down."

which is fine, but the OP is not cutting down, they are compiling multiple sequences


FWIW, the nesting i do is compiling edited sequences for a simple play-out
i dont do any further editing on the nests once they are nested / compiled.
after watching the play-out, when we go back to editing, that happens in the edit sequences,
then we nest & compile again for the next play-out


nick


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Vic Noseworthy
Re: Nested sequence needs to be re-rendered. Why?
on Nov 28, 2012 at 3:05:17 am

Hey, Nick.
My gut tells me that you may have hit on the cause the problem I've been having. I'm so new to FCP7, I really am just learning how to set up my projects. FCE4 was simpler in that everything was a single codec (i.e. AIC); now I am having to select my sequence settings, etc., so it's a little more challenging.
Here's what I have been doing since I started using FCP7:
1.) I log and transfer my footage (mostly from pro-sumer cameras; the footage is AVCHD from Canon HF M40 cameras, plus some footage from a Canon T3i);
2.) I have selected ProRes LT as the codec of choice (as mentioned, I do a lot of compositing, so I am thinking the ProResLT will hold up better than AIC).
Here's one thing that I have noticed as I start working on a project:
When I drag a clip onto the timeline, I do get a message telling me the sequence settings don't match the clip settings; I tell the program to match the sequence to the clip. From there, all works well.
However, it makes sense that this may be the source of my problem when I subsequently nest the sequences.
(FYI: When I drag a sequence onto a new sequence, i.e. when I 'nest' a sequence, I don't get the "sequence settings don't match the clip settings" message. That only happens when I drag a simple clip onto a sequence.)
I hope this explanation is clear.
As I have said, I really am new to FCP7, so I sincerely appreciate your help/advice. If you need to know more about my settings, I would be glad to provide whatever info I can.
Thanks so much for your kind assistance.
Vic


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Nick Meyers
Re: Nested sequence needs to be re-rendered. Why?
on Nov 28, 2012 at 3:35:35 am

hi, Vic.
yes sounds like this could be the problem.

what you need to do is to set you sequence preset to match your clip's settings.
this is simple enough, but not automatic.

you need to go to your FCP menu > AV Settings,
hunt through the available sequence settings in there till you find the right one,
and select that.
NOTE: you need to click in the column on the left and get a check mark or tick on it, not just a highlight, otherwise it is not selected.

another approach to this is to use the Easy Set-Up window.

yet another approach is to just create a new sequence, edit a clip in, say YES you want it to match,
delete the clip , then drag your sequence in.
but that is boring to do every time. (only ok if you are in panic mode!)

next, make sure it has worked:
make a new sequence, edit a clip into it.do you get the warning?
no, then good

now make a new sequence and drag your edit sequence into it as a nest.
should work, fingers crossed.


finally, i would say that ProResLT might not be best for you.
it is a slightly lower quality (hard to see, i know) and definitely not great for compositing.
i use LT for off-line editing, where i cut at a lower res to save disk space.
i found that when i re-built my effects using the camera original (ProRes4444) they rendered faster than the LT did.
something to do with the greater compression, (and the "Dithering" process in LT, i was advised)
i would suggest you use ProRes422


cheers,
nick


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Vic Noseworthy
Re: Nested sequence needs to be re-rendered. Why?
on Dec 1, 2012 at 6:17:03 am

Hey, Nick.
Again, thanks for your help! I haven't had time to try out your suggestions yet; I have been editing like crazy (real estate and weddings), and I am currently preparing for another wedding shoot tomorrow (and it's now 2:48 a.m.!!!). I will report back when I have had time to try your advice.
In the meantime...
As I mentioned, I am shooting with, among other things, a Canon HF M40 camera. I am shooting in MXP mode, which is apparently at 24 mbs. Yet, when I log and transferred the footage into FCP7, and click on the properties of the clip(s), the info provided indicates it is 17 mbs (which, on this camera, is FXP mode). Any idea why this is happening?
Thanks again!
Vic


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Nick Meyers
Re: Nested sequence needs to be re-rendered. Why?
on Dec 1, 2012 at 8:31:35 am

hi, VIc.

no idea, sorry.
i dont have experience with that camera

i'd sugest starting a new thread.

cheers,
nick


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Vic Noseworthy
Re: Nested sequence needs to be re-rendered. Why?
on Nov 28, 2012 at 2:44:23 am

Yes, that's clear. Thank you, Dave. Much appreciated!
Vic


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