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Duplicated frame after ensemble edit to tape

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Shawn Hyper
Duplicated frame after ensemble edit to tape
on Nov 19, 2012 at 5:05:53 am

Hi, we have rented a Sony DVW-2000P Digibeta VTR (the same deck) for 2 times, and encountered strange problem.

For the first time, there's a random nummber (either 1 or 2) of frames duplicated. For example, the IN point on tape is set to 10:01:00:00, and the programme length is 1 minute, then the end point shoulde be 10:01:59:24 (Pal). If say the frame sequence is like ABCDEFG…….., then what really on tape is AABCDEFG………., there’s a duplicated frame of the first frame at the beginning! And now the end point on tape is 10:01:02:00. There’s one frame offset for the whole programme. If 2 frames are duplicated, then the sequence on tape is AAABCDEFG……….

We know that it's said in FCP manual that if there's duplicated frames, user should adjust the plackback offset setting of device control in FCP. But no matter what valuse we set, 4,5,6...9, etc, there's always at least 1 frame duplicated, some times 2 frames.

There's no enough time for us to do further test and we returned the deck.

Then came the 2nd time,we rented the same deck. This time I would make a test first. I set the plackback offset setting to 5, then made a ensemble edit, there're 2 frames duplicated. Then plackback offset to 7, still 2 frames duplicated. One more time, plackback offset to 9, 2 frames duplicated! Then I gave up.

How can it be?! By searching the forum, I noticed that some others have had similar problems. But none is solved.

Anyone can give some advices? Thanks in advance.

BTW, the system we use includes a MAC w/OS X 10.7.4, Final Cut Pro 7, Blackmagic Multibridge Extreme video interface w/ SDI and RS422 port, Sony DVW-2000P Digibeta VTR. FCP outputs video through SDI to VTR, and remotely controls VTR by RS422 port.




Too Many Standards = No Standard = Chaos
FCP7, Mac OSX 10.7.4, BMD Multibridge Extreme
Pro Tools HD 1 v 8.1cs1


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Michael Gissing
Re: Duplicated frame after ensemble edit to tape
on Nov 19, 2012 at 5:30:17 am

FCPs method for edit to tape sucks. Having copied the way Avid originally did it, FCP sits on the first frame of the edit and at the edit point plays at full speed. This is instead of rolling to sync in the pre roll. In Pal, this sometimes creates a duplicated field or a slight jump. I never try to do a drop in edit unless the shot has no movement or I can drop into black. Usually I do an assemble edit from 10 seconds and just lay everything down in one slab.

Frame offset for Sony VTRs should be +4 frames. The problem is also bad for audio drop ins as the VTR tries to do a crossfade but with zero preroll on the incoming, it makes for a small dropout or glitch/ click.


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Shawn Hyper
Re: Duplicated frame after ensemble edit to tape
on Nov 19, 2012 at 7:23:36 am

Thanks for reply.

But when edit to tape with FCP, there is pre-roll on the tape deck for speeding-up.




Too Many Standards = No Standard = Chaos
FCP7, Mac OSX 10.7.4, BMD Multibridge Extreme
Pro Tools HD 1 v 8.1cs1


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Michael Gissing
Re: Duplicated frame after ensemble edit to tape
on Nov 20, 2012 at 12:26:10 am

yes there is tape pre roll but no pre rolling in FCP just instant start at the edit point, hence the problems for clean inserts and audio not being able to cross fade.


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Shawn Hyper
Re: Duplicated frame after ensemble edit to tape
on Nov 20, 2012 at 9:17:45 am

Oh, FCP needs pre-roll too!? I just thought on computer any application has super fast random access to datas.

As for us, none of the offset settings will work. BTW, the audio of the first frame is also duplicated.

I just wonder how those people using only FCP will do the edit to tape operation, especially when the timecode is strictly required by the broadcasters.




Too Many Standards = No Standard = Chaos
FCP7, Mac OSX 10.7.4, BMD Multibridge Extreme
Pro Tools HD 1 v 8.1cs1


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Mark Spano
Re: Duplicated frame after ensemble edit to tape
on Nov 20, 2012 at 8:39:18 pm

Michael's right. Avoid FCP Edit to Tape if you're looking for consistent frame accuracy on tape edits. In the past, when I've only had FCP in my toolkit, I'd do a layoff and then to a machine-to-machine edit to get what I want where I wanted it. Avid MC has a better protocol and tape edits rarely slip. So frustrating.



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Michael Gissing
Re: Duplicated frame after ensemble edit to tape
on Nov 20, 2012 at 11:14:35 pm

I use it all the time to do the assemble in bars. It doesn't matter in black or bars if it does a frame duplication. Otherwise I find I have frame accurate edit to tape with correct first frame timecode. It is just a pain if I need to do an insert to change something and then I look for black. I am using Kona3 with correct drivers for my OS.

There are other utilities that come with various cards like the Blackmagic Media Express that lets you do edit to tape functions. I am sure AJA also have one but I am not having any problems doing layoffs to tape as an assemble at the head so I haven't used them.


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