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How to fill SD dvd with as much information from HD project

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Grant Strac
How to fill SD dvd with as much information from HD project
on Oct 8, 2012 at 2:59:18 pm

Hello,

Thank you for taking time out to assist me. So I know how to make a dvd I have an apple's master certification in final cut studio 3 and I am certified trainer. So please don't be afraid to be technical and if you want skip the basics and just get to the nitty gritty.

I have had this problem forever and I can't figure it out. I have 28:28 HD show that when exported for broadcast it's Uncompressed 16-bit is 287.5gb. Now when I do reference, or convert that uncompressed to dvd (just for shit's & giggles), export to prores then convert to dvd. The max final output for sd dvd is 1.64 gb.

Now I understand that I'm not going to get massive quality but I want to figure out how to fill that disc wit as much information as possible wether or not it adds to the image. I want that disc to be filled with 3.87gb of sd video from my HD project. Their has to be some way I'm not thinking of to let it be compressed into larger mpeg-2 stream. It seems impossible that I can't change some settings and calculate the rate to fill that disc. I don't want to two pass the encode or anything like that. Just be able to fill out that disc's remaining space.

Any on topic suggestions are appreciated. Thank you and have great day!


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adam taylor
Re: How to fill SD dvd with as much information from HD project
on Oct 8, 2012 at 3:57:26 pm

err...why?

Adam Taylor
Video Editor/Audio Mixer/ Compositor/Motion GFX/Barista
Character Options Ltd
Oldham, UK

http://www.sculptedbliss.co.uk
My YouTube Animations Page


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Ryan Holmes
Re: How to fill SD dvd with as much information from HD project
on Oct 8, 2012 at 4:19:59 pm

[Grant Strac] "The max final output for sd dvd is 1.64 gb."

I'm not really sure what this statement means. That's as big as you can get the final output? If it's sufficient quality what difference does it make? Bigger doesn't mean better.

Not to be pedantic here, but you're just dealing with a basic equation. You're variables are data rate (audio and video) and duration (length of video). That will determine the size of your m2v. You can figure this out by doing the math for your overall data rate and the length of your video. The software won't do it for you.

The max data rate a SD-DVD can handle is 9Mbps. Some older DVD players will choke on that data rate. So I'd call that more a theoretical max than a practical max. I'd venture a more conservative 7-8Mbps if you want your DVD to play on most (all?) DVD players.

Ryan Holmes
http://www.ryanholmes.me
vimeo.com/ryanholmes


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Chris Tompkins
Re: How to fill SD dvd with as much information from HD project
on Oct 8, 2012 at 4:38:18 pm

When you compress for DVD - making mpeg2 compliant files - you set the data rate.
Start around 6mb/s and see how large file you have. Keep dialing it in until you're around 4GB for the vid track.

This way you are Maximizing the quality to space ratio.

Chris Tompkins
Video Atlanta LLC


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Grant Strac
Re: How to fill SD dvd with as much information from HD project
on Oct 8, 2012 at 4:59:56 pm

Chris,
I'm not sure where you're getting the bit rate's from unless your strictly talking about the dvd mpeg 2 settings. As I put in my post this is a personal quest. I am one of 16 people having masters certification so I am well aware of the technical theory of discs and the mpeg2 stream. I understand how a file being 287gb goes down to maximum 1.64gb, it's the algorithm I get it. I want to see what it will look like if I fill a disc. I said above I don't care if it even gives more quality or not. That is reason number one. I film DSLR and my files are huge and I would like to put as much as that information on disc as possible. The free space is there so I want to take advantage.
My other reason I have a four disc set coming up and I know already probably all my final outputs can fit on one disc but is being sold across 4. I would like to figure out how to write the whole disc so someone doesn't turn it over and see less than 1/4 of each disc filled. Now I am using professional discs and duplicator so it will be hard since they are proper dvd's but I am just thinking of all thinking ahead. I am perfectionist and if I can cover an angle I will.

Again I realize that the algorithm is not capable of much more because it's taking such a large file down to small. With all the training I have in compressor and dvd as far as I know it's not possible. MPEG2 is what it is.

What makes me think that maybeeee theres a way and I might just be unaware of a particular way of looking at this.

I edited this project in HD, final file size 287gb. I also converted all the footage to SD and replaced into a SD based project. The final export size was 14gb. When I take HD to dvd the disc size is 1.67 and the SD project to disc is 3.78gb.

See I have figured out this best way to deliver to disc with best quality but I just want to see if my theory is possible beyond the knowledge at hand.

Don't bother asking me why or anything. On topic responses only. Yes or no with a explanation if necessary please. Chris thank you

As an apple certified trainer it really bothers me that people come like Ryan come with no additional advice you are wasting your time and mine. If an inexperienced person needs immediate help or myself it is counter productive to not stay with topic and answer the question like Chris. Apple teaches that we should always answer a student's question. ask things like "well I understand what your asking but it's really not possible because of this..." Be an adult or don't answer posts. I get the honor of dealing with the havoc people like you spread into the world by misinforming people or wasting their time causing them to become discouraged and or scared to post on forum like this because might be ridiculed.


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Ryan Holmes
Re: How to fill SD dvd with as much information from HD project
on Oct 8, 2012 at 7:02:58 pm

Grant - I meant you no disrespect. Sorry if it came out that way.

What I'm saying is that you're dealing with a math equation here. To fill up your DVD with a 30 minute show means that you would need to run a data rate of about 18Mbps. That's double the allowable standard of a SD-DVD. Just use any bandwidth to filesize calculator to figure out your data rate vs. file size: http://web.forret.com/tools/filesize.asp?speed=7&unit=Mbps&dur=1800

As I've understood your post that's what I see you asking. How do I fill up my 4.6GB DVD with a 30 minute video file. Answer: you don't. You can run it at 9Mbps which will generate a roughly 2GB file, and fill up half the DVD. If your question was: is there an automatic setting that fills out the disc. Then I would say let DVD Studio Pro encode it and it can pick the best settings to maximize disc space. But it's not going to fill up the disc as you say.

If your question is something else entirely then I apologize for misunderstanding.

Ryan Holmes
http://www.ryanholmes.me
vimeo.com/ryanholmes


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Grant Strac
Re: How to fill SD dvd with as much information from HD project
on Oct 8, 2012 at 9:24:15 pm

I have to apologize in my frustration I was talking about adam's "errr why" that was what I was bitching about not you at all I got the names confused in the list. I totally appreciate that you did answer what I was trying to figure out. Again I got your name mixed up you where not at all wrong or incorrect it was adam that made me angry. I appreciate your time and concern. I didn't think it would be possible but I wanted to see if I wasn't seeing an angle. Thank you


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Grant Strac
Re: How to fill SD dvd with as much information from HD project
on Oct 8, 2012 at 9:36:39 pm

So I have a question for you them.

Would you down convert all HD your footage and edit in the final output format, sd? Or would you still edit in hd and then downconvert afterwards?

I've been taught that you should edit in final output. Unfortunately, I was hired when the project was half way done so I was stuck with it as is but I'm thinking about the future project now.

With this project I had the quality issue because they mixed HD & SD. I didn't catch the interlacing order until the end because I was too wrapped up with getting it done. The final discs came out looking poor. So I am wondering if as been taught downconvert the next project and edit in sd?

I have never had to deal with this mixing process I always delivered in filmed format. So I am not sure which will preserve the best quality for output


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eric pautsch
Re: How to fill SD dvd with as much information from HD project
on Oct 8, 2012 at 7:07:09 pm

Ryan gave you a perfectly good explanation. DVD has limits and that is 9.8 mb/s (video) and 10.08 payload rate (video/audio combined).

You need to think of it in time, not file size. Thats why bitrates are offered in mb per SEC. He also explained why you should not go near the bitrate ceiling. 7-8mb/s max for burned media.

This is why you need to do a bit budget every time you make a disc. What the length of your program? Thats the first question....from there you would use a bitrate calculator (or some some simple math) to find your optimal bitrate based on your project. Here's a calculator

http://www.videohelp.com/calc.htm

I find it hard to believe Apple training never mentioned bit budgeting.


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Grant Strac
Re: How to fill SD dvd with as much information from HD project
on Oct 8, 2012 at 9:30:32 pm

I was incorrect when I wrote ryan into my rant and I apologized to him it was adam's useless statement that pissed me off. But I understand you are correct to answer your question it's 28:28. Now I did several tests and I jacked the bit rate all the way up to, Maximum 9. and average at 7.5 and that is where I get that final file size of 1.76.

My one problem was answered as to put orphan tracks to fill out the disc but I still am confused why when I encode the hd project I get the smaller file size than the sd encode which comes out three times bigger. As far as I have been taught about compressor and the codecs I think, now I can be incorrect I am flawed as stated above :), but since the file size is so large with hd it's compressing more information into that particular codec and the sd is closer to the mpeg 2 so it comes out larger.....I think

That is what has me so confused about the sizes. I know it wouldn't add quality to the final print if I was able to fill out the rest of disc but it just seems like if I where to encode the hd project in a different process maybe I can get it just little larger.

I know that this is incorrect thinking but thanks for taking time


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Alan Okey
Re: How to fill SD dvd with as much information from HD project
on Oct 8, 2012 at 7:11:52 pm

If you're just looking to fill up the available space on the DVD so that it looks full to the naked eye, try adding some orphaned tracks to the DVDSP project. For example, just duplicate the existing video track but don't add any links to or from the copied tracks. That way they won't be accessible to the viewer, but they'll take up space on the disc.


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Grant Strac
Re: How to fill SD dvd with as much information from HD project
on Oct 8, 2012 at 9:17:53 pm

Thanks, that I didn't think of at all


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Jeff Meyer
Re: How to fill SD dvd with as much information from HD project
on Oct 8, 2012 at 9:15:09 pm

Ryan gave a perfect response - Chris was actually incorrect here.

The limitation is a DVD player simply can not read and process 4GB of data in 30 minutes. If you want to burn 30 minutes worth of content onto a DVD disc that's universally compatible the result will have less than 2GB of data on the disc. If you want higher bitrate SD you'll have to consider a different delivery such as, tape (DigiBeta, DVCPRO), BluRay, or a file based option.

Apple can be as idealistic about helping people as they like, but this is a physical limitation of the DVD format. No amount of idealism in the world will change the answer. With DV50 you're constrained to 50mbps. With a DVD the limit 10.06mbps or less for video, audio, and closed captioning. Feel free to read the Data Rate section if you don't trust myself or Ryan:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DVD-Video


I would imagine Apple would have educated you about standards compliance. Actually, given how standards compliant FCX was at release, I take that back.


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Grant Strac
Re: How to fill SD dvd with as much information from HD project
on Oct 8, 2012 at 9:21:28 pm

I don't understand how your tying in idealism in answer and the facts. I was keeping those two things separate. As alway I said in this post I understand the codec I wanted to see if it would be possible to fit more on because when I do sd and hd of same project file sizes don't add up. But thank you for the clarification to everyone on that its not possible I get that it wouldn't add anything extra to the quality I only wanted to see if it could be done thank you


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Grant Strac
Re: How to fill SD dvd with as much information from HD project
on Oct 8, 2012 at 9:41:54 pm

I'll propose this to everyone that's answered my last question

Would you down convert all HD your footage and edit in the final output format, sd? Or would you still edit in hd and then downconvert afterwards?

I've been taught that you should edit in final output. Unfortunately, I was hired when the project was half way edited so I was stuck with it as is but I'm thinking about the future projects now.

With this project I had the quality issue because they mixed HD & SD. I didn't catch the interlacing order until the end because I was too wrapped up with everything else and I had shitty due date. The final discs came out looking poor. So I am wondering if as been taught downconvert the next project and edit in sd?

I have never had to deal with this mixing formats for broadcast process I always delivered in filmed format & if mixed I delivered web. So I am not sure which will preserve the best quality for output.

For broadcast when I transcoded uncompressed 8bit for sd it looked fine but when it came to the dvd's it looked so bad. I ended up going back and running test on encoding the hd to sd so the the field order was same straight through but I really didn't get that much better quality and I assume this is only because in all my rushing I mixed things too many times.

This has been a problem I've been asked and contemplated many times. Thanks for help


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Steve Eisen
Re: How to fill SD dvd with as much information from HD project
on Oct 8, 2012 at 9:50:48 pm

[Grant Strac] "I am one of 16 people having masters certification so I am well aware of the technical theory of discs and the mpeg2 stream"

LOL

Steve Eisen
Eisen Video Productions
Vice President
Chicago Creative Pro Users Group


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Steve Eisen
Re: How to fill SD dvd with as much information from HD project
on Oct 8, 2012 at 9:58:21 pm

[Grant Strac] "s an apple certified trainer it really bothers me that people come like Ryan come with no additional advice you are wasting your time and mine. If an inexperienced person needs immediate help or myself it is counter productive to not stay with topic and answer the question like Chris. Apple teaches that we should always answer a student's question. ask things like "well I understand what your asking but it's really not possible because of this..." Be an adult or don't answer posts. I get the honor of dealing with the havoc people like you spread into the world by misinforming people or wasting their time causing them to become discouraged and or scared to post on forum like this because might be ridiculed."

Time for you to have a discussion with Bruce Nazarrian. He can explain everything you need to learn!

Steve Eisen
Eisen Video Productions
Vice President
Chicago Creative Pro Users Group


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Grant Strac
Re: How to fill SD dvd with as much information from HD project
on Oct 8, 2012 at 10:00:06 pm

Thanks that was sufficiently on topic to the thread


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eric pautsch
Re: How to fill SD dvd with as much information from HD project
on Oct 8, 2012 at 10:07:59 pm

If you shoot HD then edit HD. Once you are done editing, youd down convert to SD and encode from that. Your final product might be SD DVD but lets say someone ask you for a Blu Ray or maybe they might want an HD file for a Film Festival? At this point your S.O.O.L since your master SD.

Using the idea to fill the rest of the disc with dummy info just to say you filled the disc doesnt make a bit of sense. What were you expecting to gain with filling a disc knowing it wont improve the actually product?


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Grant Strac
Re: How to fill SD dvd with as much information from HD project
on Oct 8, 2012 at 10:15:28 pm

hmmm good point. So do you have advice how to deal with the field order problem. I couldn't quite figure it out. I encoded the hd to sd so the field order was the same and then I transcoded the sd to upper field order and that really didn't help. The same field order (lower) then put to dvd looked a little better but not as much as I would of liked.

When I do my dslr footage to dvd it looks much better but still has that bar'ed look to it.

I'm at a loss to how to get it to atleast look clear.

This looks like shit I know I'm missing something. All be it I didn't start the project and this previous place defiantly didn't set the project up properly but I couldn't figure out what they did different than what I do when I do project that causes this look. The footage is HDV 1080 60i converted to mpeg2 this is the final out look and it is much worse on dv.



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eric pautsch
Re: How to fill SD dvd with as much information from HD project
on Oct 8, 2012 at 10:18:34 pm

What frame rate did you shoot? What frame rate did you edit?



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Grant Strac
Re: How to fill SD dvd with as much information from HD project
on Oct 8, 2012 at 10:19:40 pm

29.97 and timeline 29.97 non drop for both


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eric pautsch
Re: How to fill SD dvd with as much information from HD project
on Oct 8, 2012 at 10:30:58 pm

Ok....then you export out a 720x480 16x9 Anamorphic ProRes file and use that to encode in Compressor using a bitrate of around 7.5 mb/s

Make sure your field order is the same throughout the entire process.


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Grant Strac
Re: How to fill SD dvd with as much information from HD project
on Oct 8, 2012 at 10:38:40 pm

I did several different tests.
1. Straight from timeline to compressor transcoded straight to dvd
2. Pro res SD 720*480 transcode to sd dvd7.5
3. Po res to hd 1440*1080 and transcode that to sd 7.5
4. Even, completely pointless, uncompressed 16bit to dvd 7.5
5. Un-Self contained to pro to sd
6. Un-Self straight to dvd

I found that Pro HD to dvd gave best quality even though longer process but I need full res print anyway

I went back to transcode the hd to sd and then to dvd several ways and still pro hd to sd dvd was best quality.

I even slapped deinterlacing filter on it but that made worse on both odd & even.

I feel like somethings missing when I do this because I've never seen this bad of output


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eric pautsch
Re: How to fill SD dvd with as much information from HD project
on Oct 8, 2012 at 10:47:52 pm

Your timeline is 1920x1080 29.97 (60i)correct?

Export out from that a 720x480 16x9 anamorphic file and encode from there. Its as simple as that.



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Grant Strac
Re: How to fill SD dvd with as much information from HD project
on Oct 8, 2012 at 11:31:45 pm

Well ok maybe this is my problem. The final cut timeline has mixed order. Sd is low and HD high as it should be. When I am outputting to pro hd it's upper then get converted down to sd lower. That's why I'm wondering should I transcode all my hd source footage to lower because that's where it's going to end up. Because right now this is mixed up&low, to up, to low

This was my most likely thought to what was going on but does it cause problem because hd is supposed to be upper. Or should I transcode the sd footage to upper for, which i tried and the pro res looked better but then same on sd output. OR, haha, should I transcode the sd final to upper?

That is the question. Gets confusing and couldn't find any literature on it.

Due thanks for taking the time out


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Jeff Meyer
Re: How to fill SD dvd with as much information from HD project
on Oct 8, 2012 at 11:26:58 pm

We can help you get a better product, we just need to know details. Knowing you're having interlacing issues makes it a lot easier to give relevant, on-topic advice than hearing you want to use more space on a DVD or hearing that you're Apple certified. If you feel like I'm insulting your intelligence asking simple questions I don't intend to, I just need to make sure we're talking on the same level. When troubleshooting issues with your students I'm sure you start at the basics.

Knowing we have an interlacing issue at hand, let's start at the source. You say the project was shot on HDSLR at 29.97. If it were 23.976 we would know it were progressive, but with 29.97 we can't be certain. Let's dig a bit deeper so we know if the footage was sourced interlaced or progressive.

If the project was shot on a Canon DSLR (T2i, 5D Mk2, 5D Mk3, 7D, 60D, etc.) or Nikon HDSLR the footage was shot progressive - no field dominance. These manufacturers do not shoot interlaced footage with their HDSLRs.
If the project was shot with Panasonic (GH2) it could have been acquired interlaced or progressive. You'll have to look into that with the DP, or check the original, unconverted files.


With the info above do you know if was the video interlaced or progressive?


You have SD files living on your timeline it sounds like. The standard HDSLR practice is to edit HD, then convert SD at he end. This produces an HD master and involves less time converting footage. Converting to SD up front for an SD deliverable is a perfectly fine workflow choice, and it saves disc space, but it needs to be done with care.

When you converted the footage to SD, did you convert to interlaced video at that point? If so what field dominance did you establish - lower or upper? Does your timeline have the same dominance?


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Grant Strac
Re: How to fill SD dvd with as much information from HD project
on Oct 9, 2012 at 12:21:21 am

well I appreciate your assistance. The question of getting more room on dvd is different topic. I was just trying to see if there was a different way to open up the dvd encode than I've been taught to get more space used on disc since it's there. I wanted to run test on it for my own personal quest.

I've now moved onto completely different question, I should of posted different forum but Eric was assisting me.

The project was not shot on DSLR. Sorry for confusion I was using that as an example for the difference in quality when I do dslr pro res & sd compared to what I was working with now. I can't say what the source footage was filmed in because I was hired after a prod house failed to deliver.

I do know that the hd was captured in HDV 1080 60i 1440*1080 29.97 upper field, the sd was captured as Pro res 720*480 lower field. HD & SD in interlaced. My final output is desired to SD 720*480 dvd. I then transcoded the hd to pro res after the fact trying to figure out the interlacing.

When I output I get this look. I've never had this low quality with my cameras. I know dslr is way more information than the 1440 hdv tape but still I can't settle with myself that this is the output. It looks like dog ****.


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Grant Strac
Re: How to fill SD dvd with as much information from HD project
on Oct 8, 2012 at 10:05:18 pm

see i say that so people like you don't waste time and get to the topic but yet again a second example of jackass that doesn't add to any thread or help the questioning problem. Your a vice president of a company but your in school yard pushing people around. Why not just add something to the thread answer the questions or propose something of value. This is exactly the problem I have people that I teach one on one and they are terrified to go online and ask a question because they get made fun of or someone trys to make them look like an idiot.

This project i'm working on is about bullying how it's causing people all around to go to the extreme to try and stop their tormentors and how bad the outcome gets. Perfect for you. I'm sure you treat your employees famously


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eric pautsch
Re: How to fill SD dvd with as much information from HD project
on Oct 9, 2012 at 2:17:40 am

Then you need to recapture some footage since all field orders need to match



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Grant Strac
Re: How to fill SD dvd with as much information from HD project
on Oct 9, 2012 at 4:29:34 pm

Ok that makes sense but then let me ask what field order should it match? Since I'm doing the entire project in HD but going to sd dvd and hd/sd broadcast should I capture HD footage in lower field or sd in upper?

It's like a cyclone dragging me in. Haha I feel like since HD is higher quality no matter what I should capture and edit in lower so when I go to SD I get best quality out of it and the HD will be better.

DO you know if head ends can take hd in lower? would that cause a problem?


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adam taylor
Re: How to fill SD dvd with as much information from HD project
on Oct 9, 2012 at 1:29:11 pm

Wow !

I hope you don't mind, Grant, but i thought i might just respond in a little more depth than my initial comment, as i am quite impressed that two words asked merely to illicit more information could cause you so much pain.

You Preface your request for assistance by telling all and sundry how much of an Apple certified expert you are. Then proceed to outline a problem that most people do not see as a problem, with stated aims that make little sense (i want to fill a dvd with 28mins of SD, regardless of whether it adds any quality??).

Then because i have the bare faced cheek to ask why? you start off on an abusive rant wrongly aimed at the one person who had taken the time to respond in more detail. Thats fair enough i suppose. I could have spent more time expounding on why i had the nerve to ask such an offensive question, but as i'm busy editing, i felt that the one word was sufficient.

Perhaps i should have explained my thinking in asking the question WHY? It was not to upset or piss you off, but merely to discover the reason for your question, in the belief that many solutions to problems are solved with lateral thinking. Approach from a different angle and you may find an answer that suprises you.

Other very knowledgeable and helpful people have gone out of their way to help you answer the problem you posed, and you continue to abuse them, with constant reminders of your lofty status as an Apple Certified Trainer and the one person in the world who has to mop up the problems of the inxperienced being savaged by forum posters, and by your demands that only the answers you see fit should be given.
Even at this point i was willing to remain out of this discussion, as many of the answers you were dismissing were giving the information you need to solve your dilemma had you bothered to apply some thought yourself.

Then you had to go and post this..."This project i'm working on is about bullying how it's causing people all around to go to the extreme to try and stop their tormentors and how bad the outcome gets. Perfect for you. I'm sure you treat your employees famously"

Really? Having read your posts to those who have been trying to help you solve this issue, its blatantly obvious that the bully in this school yard is you.

The great thing about the Cow is that it is not anonymous. That goes a long way in making people think twice before dishing out abuse. People can see your name and know who is being brutish to them. Prospective employers can even use the posts people make on the cow to guage the suitability of a candidate.

I suppose what i am saying is that civility costs nothing, but can pay off in ways far more beneficial than being abusive can.


adam

Adam Taylor
Video Editor/Audio Mixer/ Compositor/Motion GFX/Barista
Character Options Ltd
Oldham, UK

http://www.sculptedbliss.co.uk
My YouTube Animations Page


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Grant Strac
Re: How to fill SD dvd with as much information from HD project
on Oct 9, 2012 at 3:58:50 pm

good for you buddy


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Grant Strac
Re: How to fill SD dvd with as much information from HD project
on Oct 9, 2012 at 4:17:48 pm

I feel fine with my rant towards you because "errrr why" is pointless. What does that do? I clearly stated why I wanted to do it in my post other wise I wouldn't post. On half o this your right half your wrong. So I do say thank you for telling me whats up and not ignoring me I do appreciate that. You say you asked that because you wanted me to look at it in different angle...which totally thats why i went to forum to find out if I was looking at it wrong which turns out I did and gained three answers to a question. But no help from errr why. adding errr why because mpeg 2 does not encode like that so....I'm sorry two people on this forum feel threatened by my apple cert's. I mean in no way to damage ego's or imply I'm better than anyone. as I posted originally I said this to let the posters know that I don't need the whole run around of what mpeg is because I get it. I just wanted to know can it be opened up further I know what I was taught and I know it was illogical for mpeg to do what I wanted. Several of you get offended that I said well that didn't help. I got whole bunch of nothing until one dude finally broke it down to exactly what I asked. I don't throw my title around like i'm awesome or better than you and sorry to make anyone feel that way. I was using the same logic as I do when I call apple "hey dude I'm master certified so you dont need to tell me to try the basics, I did it and just straight answer" and it always worked thought fellow editors would understand.

for potential employers I've always gotten work based of my product not my opinions

as for the comment on bullying that guy was not adding anything to forum now I don't care but someone like that is probably going to pick on someone asking to capture a tape. I take your comments deeply and do think about them. yes i was bully because i yelled at two people i didn't even mean to in my anger but i stand on errrrr why? is of no value or addition to the problem at hand I'll keep your words in my head and i learned lesson for my next posts. I am bias to all the times posters made fool of me when I used to ask the basics and yes my one student got absolutely thrown around posting on here so it was wrong for me to lash out in retaliation which i own and i was able to get assistance from the guy I wrongly accused.

but atleast contemplate this.... it's a forum for helping people to assist in problems when I post every single time I make sure to add to situation in little amount of time wasted. What does it hurt to actually take time to read what they ask and post a comprehensive reply. Or like mr "quote" me to just laugh at it and run that doesn't help anything.

you have a good day and i appreciate you confronting me and that's not sarcasm I really do


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eric pautsch
Re: How to fill SD dvd with as much information from HD project
on Oct 9, 2012 at 5:21:46 pm

I would go back and correct the field order issue on the SD material....assuming you have less of it in your project than HD. Field order doesn't really matter as long as its all the same.....which it's not.



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Grant Strac
Re: How to fill SD dvd with as much information from HD project
on Oct 9, 2012 at 5:28:17 pm

Yes it's only like 5 minutes in each dvd. Ok thank you for your input. So do you think that's why it looked so low quality on the output? It makes sense because it was all over place but I also feel like I may be doing the mpeg compression incorrectly or it could just be the source capture. I got a dvc pro project from this place and that was defiantly captured incorrectly so I think next project when I build it. The hd source looks ok but I did a burn to dvd on just one clip of the HD and it cam out looking 20% better but still like that aliasing

post been going for while now I appreciate you sticking with me to fix my problem


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eric pautsch
Re: How to fill SD dvd with as much information from HD project
on Oct 9, 2012 at 6:08:49 pm

Well assuming everything was done correctly, it will look fine since people have been making DVDs for 2 decades now :)

So it's either theres something in your workflow that is off or you're expecting too much.....it's impossible to know from here. :).

As an editor, You need to know the complete workflow.....how was it shot? How was it captured? What format are you exporting, ect FCP is very helpful in determining where there's a short in the process.



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Grant Strac
Re: How to fill SD dvd with as much information from HD project
on Oct 9, 2012 at 6:12:21 pm

Eric,

Ok thanks a lot for the time. I think its something in the work flow because when I do my projects I don't get that bad of an output. So I have to assume it has to do with the capture and field order. Im going to go back and run some test now based off what we discussed. I have another one coming up and I have the source tapes now rather than halfway done project and I'll have to see! Have great day dude.


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Jeff Meyer
Re: How to fill SD dvd with as much information from HD project
on Oct 10, 2012 at 4:30:41 am

The camera looks soft in the screenshot..is the HD material (before a transcode) sharp?

I would edit in a ProRes timeline with the same frame size, pixel aspect, frame rate, and field order you captured in - 1440x1080, 29.97, upper. I would take a Current settings export into Compressor and do all of the conversion there.

If you need to work in a SD timeline (background plate is 720x486, graphics are prebuilt in SD, etc.) I would capture the footage in HD, then drop the HD footage onto the SD timeline, paying the render cost along the way. Final Cut will automatically apply a shift fields filter to handle the field order mismatch when you bring content from the Browser or Viewer down. It won't do this if you copy/paste. Final Cut will also take care of the scaling and distort. If you turn the quality on the Sequence settings up (notes below) this workflow should look pretty darn good for SD.


Considering the project that's already cut, I would open the Sequence Settings and be sure the rendering is on best quality for the Motion Scaling and 10 bit High Precision YUV for the color, and unless there's a lot of pride or client money hanging out there I would call it good. Some projects are worth troubleshooting, and sometimes you've put so much time into something you just need to call it good and finish it up.


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Grant Strac
Re: How to fill SD dvd with as much information from HD project
on Oct 10, 2012 at 7:19:39 pm

Thank you I did try the sd timeline and it didn't look that much better. Right now it's acceptable to the clients and with focus groups but I am perfectionist so it's mainly pride driving me.

Let me ask this, would it make sense in future if my final format is sd dvd and sd broadcast but shot in HD & SD like this project would you capture the HD footage in SD or would you capture true HD and then down convert and shift field order on transcode?

I've always wrestled with that idea especially with SD dvd delivery. I'm dslr and have workflow that works great with that but seems the HDV 1440 causes this odd look on output. As I've been taught by apple always edit in your output, now if I may go to blu ray I do HD project and deal with this. But since I'm going to sd out I feel like it would be better for me to capture hd to have it then transcode that pro res down to SD 720 lower field.

Or would you suggest doing hd project and afterwards taking all the hd footage and transcoding it to sd into different folder then duplicate the project file and change it all the sd and reconnect the SD footage?

Thanks


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eric pautsch
Re: How to fill SD dvd with as much information from HD project
on Oct 10, 2012 at 9:01:10 pm

Always keep it HD for the reason I gave earlier...capturing and editing SD just because your final output with be SD will make no difference in the final outcome

You seem to be reallly confused on Alot of basic issues here. You shoot DLSR ( which is 23.98) but you then talk about 1080 I HDV and field orders? Filling up discs space? Always edit as native as possible....this is video 101 stuff. :)

Shoot 1080p and edit 1080p....thats 1920x1080 23.98.


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adam taylor
Re: How to fill SD dvd with as much information from HD project
on Oct 11, 2012 at 8:19:59 am

I agree that its best if you can edit and capture in HD you should do that. Retain the quality as long as you can before compressing the video.

My commercials are all shot, edited and colour graded in HD before the final compression to SD for transmission.
The result is always a much cleaner final SD master. The extra information in the video also makes for a more accurate colour grade.

I dont know specific numbers but have read (and witnessed first hand) that the higher quality video you use to compress, then the better the compression will be, and at a smaller file size. Theory says its because the extra noise in lower quality images makes more work for the compression software, as it does not know what is to be kept and what is noise. If the noise is less, then it can compress more, but retain the quality. Thats why many people shoot on Red cameras when they are aiming at an online final destination.

Adam Taylor
Video Editor/Audio Mixer/ Compositor/Motion GFX/Barista
Character Options Ltd
Oldham, UK

http://www.sculptedbliss.co.uk
My YouTube Animations Page


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