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29.97 Dropframe Issue !!! Need ADVICE ASAP

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James Kim
29.97 Dropframe Issue !!! Need ADVICE ASAP
on Aug 22, 2012 at 4:31:48 pm

Hi There,

I have a sequence in FCP that was edited in 29.97 NON Drop Frame and we need to prep it for broadcast delivery. I moved my sequence into a DROP frame sequence and got a very different timecode.

The TRT is 30 min but when comparing the DROP Frame and NON DROP frame sequences I get these times:

Non Drop frame: 29:38:07

Drop Frame: 30:00:00

Just making sure that there isn't a serious issue with the Timecode between the 2 sequences and if so, how do I fix it?

There is 8 minutes exactly of Commercial time built into the sequence.

IF anyone can explain this issue to me that would be fantastic. This is our first episode of the first season so its a huge learning curve and I appreciate any and all help.

Thank you in advance!


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Shane Ross
Re: 29.97 Dropframe Issue !!! Need ADVICE ASAP
on Aug 22, 2012 at 6:15:12 pm

Well, the issue is that non-drop frame timecode isn't real time accurate, while drop frame is. The reasons how and why can be found here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMPTE_timecode

Go to the part called DROP FRAME TIME CODE.

Now...the big issue is that you edited your project and got it to time using non-drop frame code...and that was wrong. It won't be accurate at all. You should have edited in a drop frame timecode sequence. So what you need to do now is...since your sequence is now drop frame, you need to finesse the cut so that it matches the timings needed in order to meet the spec of the broadcaster. This will have to be done manually, there is no one-button solution to make this just work automatically.

This is one reason that you need to hire people who have broadcast editing experience. Sure, you can have people edit who don't, but SOMEONE there needs to have broadcast editing experience, so they catch the small mistakes like this, that can lead to big issues, before they happen. A Post super, lead editor...assistant editor who knows. Someone. Broadcast editing requires a lot of specific tech knowledge.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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James Kim
Re: 29.97 Dropframe Issue !!! Need ADVICE ASAP
on Aug 22, 2012 at 6:37:05 pm

Thanks Shane, I really appreciate your input.

It was a mistake for sure, I'm working on fixing that. SO our Broadcast Specs require that the TRT be 30:00:00, if its at 30:00:00 now, wouldn't it be OK?

Can you explain what I'd have to go in and FIX?

Thanks Shane


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Shane Ross
Re: 29.97 Dropframe Issue !!! Need ADVICE ASAP
on Aug 22, 2012 at 6:54:30 pm

It needs to be 30:00;00...DROP FRAME. Not non-drop. YOu yourself said it...you are short: Non Drop frame: 29:38:07. You need to add time.

What you do is add time. You already have the footage in a drop frame sequence, right? Then you need to finesse the cut to make it go to 30:00;00 Drop Frame.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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James Kim
Re: 29.97 Dropframe Issue !!! Need ADVICE ASAP
on Aug 22, 2012 at 7:17:22 pm

Ok great, so I copied over the segments that were in a NDF sequence, timed it up in a DF Sequence, and now its TRT 30:00:00 DF

Was it OK to just copy over the Segments from NDF to DF?

Sorry If these questions seem basic, Your input is appreciated


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Shane Ross
Re: 29.97 Dropframe Issue !!! Need ADVICE ASAP
on Aug 22, 2012 at 7:19:56 pm

Yes, that's fine. That works fine.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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James Kim
Re: 29.97 Dropframe Issue !!! Need ADVICE ASAP
on Aug 22, 2012 at 7:22:07 pm

Great, thanks Shane, appreciate it.


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jerry wise
Re: 29.97 Dropframe Issue !!! Need ADVICE ASAP
on Aug 22, 2012 at 7:47:15 pm

you can also get a good stopwatch and while QCing the show time it from start to end.


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Shane Ross
Re: 29.97 Dropframe Issue !!! Need ADVICE ASAP
on Aug 22, 2012 at 7:49:22 pm

[jerry wise] "you can also get a good stopwatch and while QCing the show time it from start to end."

That's hardly precise. Reaction times to press start and stop will mean you can be up to a second off.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Joseph Owens
Re: 29.97 Dropframe Issue !!! Need ADVICE ASAP
on Aug 22, 2012 at 9:19:39 pm

[Shane Ross] "It needs to be 30:00;00...DROP FRAME. Not non-drop. YOu yourself said it...you are short: Non Drop frame: 29:38:07."


These numbers don't add up. There is no way that 30:00;00 (drop) is 29:38:07 (nondrop). 22 sec 22 frames? I don't think so, or you have some typos in the original message.

30:00:00 non drop is 54,000 frames, which in Drop is 30:01;24.
If you are looking to achieve 30:00;00 Drop, your target in NonDrop is 53,946 frames, or 29:58:06.

jPo

"I always pass on free advice -- its never of any use to me" Oscar Wilde.


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John Heagy
Re: 29.97 Dropframe Issue !!! Need ADVICE ASAP
on Aug 22, 2012 at 9:35:17 pm

Joseph is correct. 1:00:00:00 in NDF equals 1:00:03:18 in DF


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jerry wise
Re: 29.97 Dropframe Issue !!! Need ADVICE ASAP
on Aug 22, 2012 at 10:50:08 pm

so i smashed my stopwatch that i have used since 1970 to time shows on quad vtr's and loaded up a tape on digibeta. timecode on the show is drop frame. i set the control track timer to non drop. at the end of 1/2 hour looking at the control track timer it reads 30:00:00/ndf and the drop frame time code from the tape reads 30:01:25/dropframe


i got into butt loads of trouble decades ago by editing some pbs shows in non drop....so my 1/2 hour show was about 2 seconds too long. 4 seconds for an hour show. and the last 4 seconds was the credit for me as cmx editor....hahahaha.

so i bought a stop watch.

i always thought they should have called it "skip frame" time code because thats what it is.


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Mark Raudonis
Re: 29.97 Dropframe Issue !!! Need ADVICE ASAP
on Aug 23, 2012 at 12:54:32 am

[jerry wise] "i always thought they should have called it "skip frame" time code because thats what it is."

No. It should be called "drop number", 'cause that's what it does! No frames are skipped, dropped, or changed. It's just the numbering that's different.

Me to newbie assistant editor>>> "When you're done with outputting the sequence, be sure to clean up all of the dropped frames from the Drop Frame timecode." Get's 'em every time!

Bottom line: If you're taking a paycheck to edit, you should know this stuff.

Mark



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jerry wise
Re: 29.97 Dropframe Issue !!! Need ADVICE ASAP
on Aug 23, 2012 at 3:39:46 pm

i still like "skip frame".

back in 1970 drop/non-drop time code was a mystery to a novice editor and drop frame was a mess to deal with because the early cmx systems were crude at best. if you were cutting a 30 second spot you wouldn't notice the difference in drop/non-drop. cut a 30 min or 60 min show and oops there it is. believe me i learned my lesson early on.


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Joseph Owens
Re: 29.97 Dropframe Issue !!! Need ADVICE ASAP
on Aug 23, 2012 at 5:10:51 pm

[Mark Raudonis] "If you're taking a paycheck to edit, you should know this stuff."

Somewhat forgiveable if contemporary editors don't know why 2 frames are dropped at a time...
but component analog obviated the need for color framing... so the origins are lost in the mists of time.

But given the current vogue for "origins" storylines....?

jPo

"I always pass on free advice -- its never of any use to me" Oscar Wilde.


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Dave LaRonde
Re: 29.97 Dropframe Issue !!! Need ADVICE ASAP
on Aug 23, 2012 at 7:09:58 pm

[Joseph Owens] "...so the origins are lost in the mists of time."

...at least until 1953, when the NTSC broadcast standard was altered to accommodate color. With the additional information demanded by color, something had to give. It was a slight change in the frame rate.

If every TV set in existence was digital, NTSC could revert to 30 fps, but unfortunately, that isn't the case. People still have SD analog sets.

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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