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Need some advice with frame rate conversion

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Isaac Hagy
Need some advice with frame rate conversion
on Jun 6, 2012 at 2:36:59 am

Hi guys,

This is my first time posting, but I have come here for answers many times. I am sure my answer is in the archives someway but I am having trouble finding it.

I am about to start cutting a feature that is going to demand a mix of 29.97 and 23.98. It's a low budget studio pic ( think Paranormal Activity) and is going to be shot on a variety of formats include webcam ( iSight), handicam (Canon XF105), Nikon AW100 and hidden cameras (Iconix). The problem is half of these shoot 29.97 and the other half 23.98. Right now I plan on finishing in 23.98.

My question is 3-fold :

1. What is the best way to force the 29.97 into a 23.98 timeline?

2. Do I do conversions during transcode or after edit is finished?

3. Am I heading toward a sync nightmare?

So far I have tried three methods :

1. Compressor - this conversion looks decent with Best Motion tabbed, but yikes is it going to take an eternity. I am not sure I can spare it.

2. MPEG STREAMCLIP - surprisingly this looks almost as good as compressor to me and takes half the time - could this be possible? I have a feeling I am missing something.

3. Render in FCP : easiest but a bit stuttery

4. Nattress G Film Plugin : This was my big hope but for some reason I can't get it to work right. It almost feels to me like it is making the image look more interlaced. Perchance I have the settings wrong?

Any one have any thoughts? Really , really appreciate the help.

Isaac


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Shane Ross
Re: Need some advice with frame rate conversion
on Jun 6, 2012 at 7:52:22 am

[Isaac Hagy] "1. What is the best way to force the 29.97 into a 23.98 timeline?"

You need to convert the footage with Compressor. Change the frame rate and set the frame controls all to BEST. Depending on how much footage you have, this can take a while. Just dropping it into a 23.98 sequence will not do it properly.

[Isaac Hagy] "2. Do I do conversions during transcode or after edit is finished?"

Before you begin editing. You might have to transcode it first, then do the frame rate conversion.

[Isaac Hagy] "3. Am I heading toward a sync nightmare? "

Shooting all those formats...you are already in the nightmare. And unless you convert the footage properly, before you edit, it will get worse.

[Isaac Hagy] "1. Compressor - this conversion looks decent with Best Motion tabbed, but yikes is it going to take an eternity. I am not sure I can spare it. "

Then don't shoot multiple frame rates. Or live with the improper ways that are faster. No one is saving time by shooting multiple formats and frame rates. The more formats and rates you shoot, the longer post will take.

[Isaac Hagy] "2. MPEG STREAMCLIP - surprisingly this looks almost as good as compressor to me and takes half the time - could this be possible? I have a feeling I am missing something. "

It doesn't quite get the pulldown removal right. But, if you like how it looks...have at it.

[Isaac Hagy] "3. Render in FCP : easiest but a bit stuttery"

Yeah, it does it all wrong. Every 4th frame is a duplicate of the 3rd. Bad bad bad.

Want it right:? use Compressor. Quick, but not quite...MPEG STreamclip.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Kevin Johnson
Re: Need some advice with frame rate conversion
on Jun 6, 2012 at 6:26:33 pm

You should pick your framerate based on deliverables. Unless you are going to film, it is much cleaner to add pulldown to your 23.98 footage in compressor than it is to deinterlace/remove pulldown from 29.97 footage.

Kevin Johnson

Autodesk Smoke Artist
FCP Editor
Washington, DC


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Isaac Hagy
Re: Need some advice with frame rate conversion
on Jun 7, 2012 at 1:57:15 am

Thanks,

I have heard it is cleaner going from 24 to 30, but since this is backed by a studio there is a chance of film out or DCP projection, in which case it is probably a safer bet to finish in 23.98 - correct?

Thanks again.


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Isaac Hagy
Re: Need some advice with frame rate conversion
on Jun 7, 2012 at 2:01:18 am

Thanks alot,

Of course time often equals quality. In your opinion is BEST light years smoother than BETTER, which I noticed Ken Stone recommends on his site?

Also, when you say :

"Before you begin editing. You might have to transcode it first, then do the frame rate conversion. "

Are you recommending I transcode from h.264 to ProRess in a separate pass from doing the frame rate conversion. I was planning on doing them both at the same time in compressor?

Thanks,

Isaac


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Isaac Hagy
Re: Need some advice with frame rate conversion
on Jun 8, 2012 at 2:25:23 am

Comverting all the footage in compressor at BEST. Still doesn't look great, acts almost as if it has a poor twixtor effect on it. Any thoughts?


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Joseph Owens
Re: Need some advice with frame rate conversion
on Jun 9, 2012 at 2:54:33 pm

"Better" Compressor conversion from 2997 to 2398 is going to be almost as good as "best" in more than 90% of all cases. You already know that choosing "Best" adds a zero to whatever render time you were quoted in "Better". So do it all, then re-submit the stuff that doesn't turn out so well, (the 10% originals) back through at "Best". It will be worth the effort to work at a unified 2398 frame base.

But don't trust FCP to do the 2:3 cadence to create 2997 correctly. It doesn't.

jPo

You mean "Old Ben"? Ben Kenobi?


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Isaac Hagy
Re: Need some advice with frame rate conversion
on Jun 9, 2012 at 11:26:19 pm

Thanks, I have been biting the bullet and doing it at BEST and running the footage off of 4 machines. Not terrible times, but the quality is really still not great. I am getting pretty bad "ghost" on certain frames. Is this unavoidable. I am almost thinking the ghosting is worse than just having lost frames?

Isaac


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Shane Ross
Re: Need some advice with frame rate conversion
on Jun 9, 2012 at 11:30:35 pm

If the footage was shot 29.97 without pulldown, meaning it was meant to be 29.97 and never meant to be converted to 23.98, then it will have a slightly odd cadence. Not look like the 23.98 footage. It might be slightly softer, But it shouldn't have ghosting.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Isaac Hagy
Re: Need some advice with frame rate conversion
on Jun 9, 2012 at 11:42:42 pm

That was my thought. And with fcp or mpeg stream clip I see the cadence issue, but with compressor I get something that looks like a bad twixtor effect.

HERE ARE TWO SAMPLE IMAGES :





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Shane Ross
Re: Need some advice with frame rate conversion
on Jun 10, 2012 at 1:36:25 am

Wow...

Those are interlaced frames condensed to progressive. Wow I wonder if you need to deinterlace it first. Wow, my settings don't do that.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Evan Warner
Re: Need some advice with frame rate conversion
on Jul 19, 2012 at 2:23:41 pm

Isaac,

Did you ever figure out a solution to your ghosting? I'm trying to do a conversion from 23.976 to 25 fps for a PAL release and am getting the exact same ghosting on my clips using compressor. None of my clips are interlaced to begin with and considering I'm only making up for ~1 extra frame I was really hoping compressor would do the trick. I have tried both best and better motion compensation and get the same results.

Here's a screen grab. Check out the arm. And no this isn't motion blur because it's not present in the original clip. Any ideas?



Cheers
Evan Warner

http://www.mysterycreative.ca


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Maik Wieczorek
Re: Need some advice with frame rate conversion
on Feb 11, 2014 at 10:58:11 am

Are there any solutions for the problem that Evan described above? 1.5 years later, I am facing the same problem, using apple compressor and trying to convert 23,9 fps to 25 fps. I can either choose beetween "ghost" pictures after converting with the best "movement compensation" in the compressor settings... or a slightly stuttering picture without ghost pictures.

Greetings, Maik


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Shane Ross
Re: Need some advice with frame rate conversion
on Feb 11, 2014 at 5:04:38 pm

That is the only way, if you don't want to change the speed...ie CONFORM 24fps to 25fps, therefore speeding it up 4%. Even the Terranex converters either repeat a frame, or have slight ghosting. There is no smooth way to add one frame per second...unless you adjust the speed.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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