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What is the workflow converting 1080i 24p to true progressive 1080 24p

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Chris Jones
What is the workflow converting 1080i 24p to true progressive 1080 24p
on Apr 11, 2012 at 11:08:03 pm

I've shot some footage at 1080i 24p using a Panasonic HPX-170 and I've read I can convert that to true 24fps 1080p in post.

I've tried a number of different ways to convert what I shot but I am still seeing interlacing in moving objects when I'm done. Reverse telecine didn't work for me, etc.

I know how to log and transfer, use compressor, use FCP etc. I just don't understand how to do the the conversion from the HPX 170 to true progressive frames on the computer.

I don't need help using the programs - I'm ok there - But if someone could give me a step by step of the conversion process from log and transfer to at clean 1080 24p that would really help me out.

When I log and transfer the files into FCP 7 the vid rate is 29.97. I'm not sure if that is how they are supposed to be or if that is part of my problem. I shot at 1080i 24p... why would they be 29.97?


Thanks for any help!


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Shane Ross
Re: What is the workflow converting 1080i 24p to true progressive 1080 24p
on Apr 11, 2012 at 11:34:21 pm

If you want 23.98 from that camera at 1080i...you need to shoot 1080i 24pA. The A means ADVANCED, and FCP will see that flag and remove pulldown, to get you 23.98. If you shot 1080i 24p...then it is 24p over 60...and will come in as 29.97. Now you need to use Cinema Tools to remove the pulldown...and you might have to experiment with the settings to see which one works right.

Again, if you want 1080p 23.98...you need to have the camera in 1080i 24pA mode.

Shane
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Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Chris Jones
Re: What is the workflow converting 1080i 24p to true progressive 1080 24p
on Apr 12, 2012 at 12:33:51 am

Thanks, I'll try it again using 24pA

Then do I just log and transfer the files into FCP using a 23.98 sequence settings?

Just so I can try to understand what is going on: When shooting 24pA are there actually 24 progressive frames being recorded within the 60 fields?

I understand the basics of interlacing in NTSC and how that worked for decades for TV - converting film 24 fps to 29.97 with pulldown, etc.

But I've never really understood how something that is recording in fields could ever truly be progressive. It seems to me that the best you could hope for is (2) 1/60 second fields being blended into a "progressive" frame.

But maybe I just fundamentally don't understand how fields can record. Does 24pA actually record 24 true progressive frames inside 59.94 fields a second?

I've never really been able to wrap my head around this concept.

Thanks again


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Shane Ross
Re: What is the workflow converting 1080i 24p to true progressive 1080 24p
on Apr 12, 2012 at 12:40:21 am

[Chris Jones] "Then do I just log and transfer the files into FCP using a 23.98 sequence settings? "

Sequence settings don't matter here. Log and Transfer needs to be set to REMOVE PULLDOWN when importing. It defaults to this setting, so you should be fine.

[Chris Jones] "Just so I can try to understand what is going on: When shooting 24pA are there actually 24 progressive frames being recorded within the 60 fields? "

Yes. They are recorded with advance pulldown so that it can be removed. That camera only shoots 30fps at 1080. If you want TRUE progressive 23.98...shoot 720p. We shoot 720p24 all the time...true 23.98, and it looks fine when converted to 1080 for mastering. I mean, we do this ALL the time.

Shane
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Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Chris Jones
Re: What is the workflow converting 1080i 24p to true progressive 1080 24p
on Apr 12, 2012 at 12:56:11 am

I do keep hearing to shot in 720p on this camera. I'll do some test tomorrow in that mode.

[Shane Ross] "That camera only shoots 30fps at 1080"

I am curious about this - do I have this correct?

Is the fact that in 1080 mode is not true 24p because the 24p frames are not spaced equally apart in time?

Meaning there are really 30 progressive frames (recorded twice - unless using 720 PN) but then 6 of those progressive frames are dropped to give you 24p? Which would give you (6) 1/30th of a second spaces of "missing time" during playback?


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Joseph Owens
Re: What is the workflow converting 1080i 24p to true progressive 1080 24p
on Apr 13, 2012 at 5:41:08 pm

[Chris Jones] "Is the fact that in 1080 mode is not true 24p because the 24p frames are not spaced equally apart in time?

Meaning there are really 30 progressive frames (recorded twice - unless using 720 PN) but then 6 of those progressive frames are dropped to give you 24p? Which would give you (6) 1/30th of a second spaces of "missing time" during playback?"


Here we go again.

You should do a search for 3:2 cadence and all will become clear. The 1080/60 mode records a field/frame sequence that accommodates the 24 frames the camera is producing, with no gaps. The 1080i mode for this camera, AFAIK, is true 2:3, which will require a reverse telecine to recover a 24P base framerate. In 720P60, the 24 frames are recorded with an Advanced Pulldown cadence, which is 2:3:3:2. You can regard the 60 (or 59.94) as individual frames or the analogs of otherwise interlaced or segmented (sF) fields, as they would be in 1080 or 525. The trick to it all for Panasonic is the AP sequence allows them to flag the "middle" redundant 29.97 frame (of the 5), and simply throw it away on import, so you get a true 24P media stream.

jPo

You mean "Old Ben"? Ben Kenobi?


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Jan Crittenden Livingston
Re: What is the workflow converting 1080i 24p to true progressive 1080 24p
on Apr 13, 2012 at 6:34:29 pm

[Shane Ross] " That camera only shoots 30fps at 1080. If you want TRUE progressive 23.98...shoot 720p."

Actually Shane the AG-HPX170 works just like the HVX200 in 1080. The customer has a choice of shooting in 24P or 24PA. For easy removal shoot in 24PA. In 720 they would shoot in 24PN(native.) I know it gets confusing with all the cameras and technology out there, but the right answer here is shoot in 24PA in 1080, that will give you 24Progressive frames on the timeline when it is set up to do 23.98 and remove pulldown.

Best,

Jan

Jan Crittenden Livingston
Product Manager, AVCCAM, AG-3DA1, AG-AF100
Panasonic Broadcast & TV Systems



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Shane Ross
Re: What is the workflow converting 1080i 24p to true progressive 1080 24p
on Apr 13, 2012 at 6:44:49 pm

[Jan Crittenden Livingston] "but the right answer here is shoot in 24PA in 1080, that will give you 24Progressive frames on the timeline when it is set up to do 23.98 and remove pulldown."

I know Jan, but it shoots 24pA at 29.97...with pulldown. It doesn't shoot 24pN at 1080, only 720. That's the only format that it shoots 24 actual fps. But yes, pulldown is easily removed if you shoot 1080pA (well, in FCP, in Avid it is far more complex)...but it shoots it at 29.97 nuntheless. Which was my point.

Shane
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Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Michael Gissing
Re: What is the workflow converting 1080i 24p to true progressive 1080 24p
on Apr 12, 2012 at 12:41:44 am

Progressive inside an interlaced wrapper is commonly done as psf. This means like telecine a progressive frame is recorded as identical fields.

Tape formats like HDCam record an interlaced carrier so psf is how they record progressive images. Not sure how Panasonic do their 24p in 29.97i. I have the luxury of working almost exclusively in 25fps where life is so much simpler.


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edgar metro
Re: What is the workflow converting 1080i 24p to true progressive 1080 24p
on Dec 19, 2012 at 6:36:42 am

Hello Shane
I have read over the years your helpful answers to so many questions on this forum.
Question:
I am shooting something on my HVX that will be for broadcast. The producer wants me to shoot in 1080 24p (23.98) Here are the spec they require:

PHOTOGRAPHED IN:
Aspect Ratio - 16:9 HD
Shooting Format - HDCAM SR / HDCAM / DVC PRO HD / HDV / XDCAM HD 35 megabit
Standard (resolution / scanning method / frame rate) – 1080i 59.94 / 1080i 50 / 1080 Psf 23.98 / 1080 Psf 25 / 720 P 59.94 / 720 P 50 / 720 P 25 / 720 P 23.98


MASTERED AND DELIVERED: 16:9 NATIVE on SONY HDCAM 1080i/59.94


The HVX only has a 1080i 24p setting and not a 1080p (as you know)
Will this be a problem when editing and outputting to the specified delivery parameters?
I have also read on here that it might be better to shoot in 24pa.
I'm quite confused on what to do.
I would appreciate any help you can provide.
Thank you in advance.

-Edgar


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Shane Ross
Re: What is the workflow converting 1080i 24p to true progressive 1080 24p
on Dec 19, 2012 at 6:47:10 pm

[edgar metro] "The producer wants me to shoot in 1080 24p"

Then set the camera to shoot 1080p 24pA...that's the Advanced Pulldown Removal option. Then in FCP in LOG AND TRANSFER preferences, make sure that REMOVE PULLDOWN is checked.

Personally, I have always shot 720p 24pN...720p 23.98 native...with that camera and always output 1080p via the Kona 3. Looks fantastic. The camera really does 23.98 better at 720p. Plus it saves tons of space on the card, giving you longer shooting times. I've done this for six network shows for History, Discovery and NatGeo.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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edgar metro
Re: What is the workflow converting 1080i 24p to true progressive 1080 24p
on Dec 19, 2012 at 7:06:10 pm

Thanks for getting back to me quickly Shane.
I won't be dealing with any of the post work myself as I am just freelancer shooting a portion of this project. It is a set of interviews that are shot with different shooters.
The rest of the footage for the show was shot on an xd cam (a 350 I think) at 23.97fs.
I just want to make sure it matches up (both scanning and frame rate) to the xd cam so the editor won't have any issues in the cutting room.
I think if I just shoot in 1080i 24pa it would be okay, right?
Sorry I'm not too familiar with workflows on the back end.
Would it be better to shoot in 720 so it will be true progressive... will the quality be an issue compared to the xd sony 350


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Shane Ross
Re: What is the workflow converting 1080i 24p to true progressive 1080 24p
on Dec 19, 2012 at 7:09:44 pm

Well, there will be lots of issues getting to to work with the Sony. One being that the Panasonic shoots 1280x1080...a sort of SUPER anamorphic format...where the XDCAM might shoot 1440x1080 normal anamorphic, or might shoot full raster 1920x1080.

But, do what the client wants. Shoot 1080i 24pA, and inform them that your camera shoots a format that needs to have the pulldown removed in post, and if they use FCP, it happens when ingesting it. That is your best option for shooting 1080 23.98.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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edgar metro
Re: What is the workflow converting 1080i 24p to true progressive 1080 24p
on Dec 19, 2012 at 7:11:25 pm

Thanks Shane!


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edgar metro
Re: What is the workflow converting 1080i 24p to true progressive 1080 24p
on Dec 19, 2012 at 7:18:45 pm

One more thing shane...
If I record to 1080 24p or pa will it still be 100mbs


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Shane Ross
Re: What is the workflow converting 1080i 24p to true progressive 1080 24p
on Dec 19, 2012 at 7:21:20 pm

Yes. DVCPRO HD is a 100mbs format. It will become slightly less when they remove the pulldown, only because frames are being removed...30 to 24. It's a tricky thing. But DVCPRO HD is also known as DVCPRO 100...100mbps.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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edgar metro
Re: What is the workflow converting 1080i 24p to true progressive 1080 24p
on Dec 19, 2012 at 7:29:39 pm

Sounds good, thanks.


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edgar metro
Re: What is the workflow converting 1080i 24p to true progressive 1080 24p
on Dec 19, 2012 at 9:52:46 pm

One more question Shane if I may.
If I want the flatter image so they can do color correction, is the cinema v setting the best option for the hvx...


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Shane Ross
Re: What is the workflow converting 1080i 24p to true progressive 1080 24p
on Dec 19, 2012 at 10:49:10 pm

Now you are in territory I don't know about. I'm an editor, not a camera guy. I disguise myself as one on occasion, but I'm not an advanced one.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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edgar metro
Re: What is the workflow converting 1080i 24p to true progressive 1080 24p
on Dec 19, 2012 at 10:52:50 pm

No worries, I just figured you would know because you're very knowledgable. Thanks.


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