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Log and Capture - Not Progressive Problem

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Nick DeMicco
Log and Capture - Not Progressive Problem
on Apr 4, 2012 at 8:07:36 pm

I am running Final Cut Pro 7.0.3 on my Macbook Pro.

I shot some footage on 16mm 24 fps FILM.
It has been converted to a miniDV tape that I am trying to capture in FCP7.

However, upon countless tries,
the footage always comes in interlaced.

Using "EASY SETUP"
I chose NTSC, 24 fps, and CinemaTools.
I then went into the Capture and Sequence Settings and made sure
they were both set to 24 fps and Progressive.

However, after capturing my footage, when I look back,
it still appears interlaced.
This is very frustrating for me and I am just hoping it's a simple fix.

But why won't it come in Progressive?
It's film, so it was shot Progressive, and I want to keep it that way.

Thanks in advance for any advice and help you give.


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Shane Ross
Re: Log and Capture - Not Progressive Problem
on Apr 4, 2012 at 11:45:35 pm

You need to read up on telecine and 3:2 pulldown. DV tape doesn't run at 23.98...24fps. It runs at 29.97...30fps. In order to get the 24fps onto a 29.97 tape, pulldown needed to be added...frames are spread out between fields.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3:2_pulldown#23pulldown

What you need to do, if you want this to be 23.98, is REVERSE TELECINE with Cinema Tools. Capture it as normal DV/NTSC...then use Cinema Tools to reverse telecine.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Michael Gissing
Re: Log and Capture - Not Progressive Problem
on Apr 5, 2012 at 12:25:12 am

Why telecine to tape at all. DV is one of the worst choices for tape as well. Better would be to get the film telecined to QT files - ProRes 422 1920 x 1080 at 24fps.


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Nick DeMicco
Re: Log and Capture - Not Progressive Problem
on Apr 5, 2012 at 12:32:02 am

The lab that I brought the film to does not transfer straight to digital, only to miniDV tapes.

So I am stuck with the miniDV tape as of now.
I'm just trying to keep the best quality going forward.


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Nick DeMicco
Re: Log and Capture - Not Progressive Problem
on Apr 5, 2012 at 1:13:40 am

Is there another way to do this?

I am a student and do not have access to Cinema Tools.


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Shane Ross
Re: Log and Capture - Not Progressive Problem
on Apr 5, 2012 at 1:51:11 am

Final Cut Pro comes bundled with Cinema Tools. FCP 5, 6 and 7 were studio packages that included other apps, including Cinema Tools.

What version do you have?

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Nick DeMicco
Re: Log and Capture - Not Progressive Problem
on Apr 5, 2012 at 1:59:24 am

I have a student version that only has Final Cut Pro 7, Motion, and Compressor.


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Shane Ross
Re: Log and Capture - Not Progressive Problem
on Apr 5, 2012 at 5:15:24 am

Student versions of Final Cut Studio have all the same apps and the normal version...all the same functionality. The only difference is the price.

Insert the installer disk...disk 1. Do a CUSTOM INSTALL of Cinema Tools. or all the apps you are missing. They are all there. DVD Studio Pro, Soundtrack Pro, Cinema Tools, Color...along with the ones you have.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Nick DeMicco
Re: Log and Capture - Not Progressive Problem
on Apr 5, 2012 at 11:16:21 am

I don't have a disk. The school provided me with a copy and I only have the three programs, Final Cut Pro, Motion, and Compressor.

I don't have access to the disk anymore so I only have what I have now.


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Dave LaRonde
Re: Log and Capture - Not Progressive Problem
on Apr 5, 2012 at 3:41:20 pm

I presume you still have the DV tapes. There's a way to do this within FCP. It's time-consuming and you won't like it, but you have to do it.

First, find a capture preset called something like, "NTSC DV 3:2 Pulldown removal." DO NOT use a capture preset with the word "advanced" in it. Got it? Good.

Next, you'll log your shots. You WILL NOT capture an entire tape. Log each take you want to use by marking an in & out point WITHIN THE SHOT. Once a tape is logged, you can do a batch capture. Repeat the procedure for each tape.

Now you have 23.976 fps (aka 23.98) PROGRESSIVE footage, and you may begin cutting your epic. When the time comes for final export, make sure the codec for the timeline is ProRes 422, and not DV. It will look better.

I didn';t give any of the reasons why you have to jump through all these hoops. Sadly, there isn't enough time: I'm off on a shoot now.

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Shane Ross
Re: Log and Capture - Not Progressive Problem
on Apr 5, 2012 at 4:25:05 pm

I hope you didn't pay for this...and this software is basically "on loan" from the school, because if you paid for it, you were robbed....not to mention the whole transaction is illegal. FCS 3 was only purchasable as a full set, and you got a box of disks.

Go back and get everything. You are lacking the tool needed to do what you need to do. And yes, ONLY that tool will do. It is designed to do just what you need. You can try fumbling about with compressor, but you'd have to test a setting, compress....look at the results. Test again.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Nick DeMicco
Re: Log and Capture - Not Progressive Problem
on Apr 5, 2012 at 6:07:10 pm

No, it came free from school, usable until I graduate. And I don't know if I'll have access to getting it again now.

Does anyone know where I can get the FCP7 package for a reasonable price?
I intend on transfering film a lot in the future and if this is gonna be a big issue, I might as well purchase it and get everything. My copy expires soon anyway once I graduate


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Shane Ross
Re: Log and Capture - Not Progressive Problem
on Apr 5, 2012 at 6:17:37 pm

[Nick DeMicco] "Does anyone know where I can get the FCP7 package for a reasonable price?"

Final Cut Pro 7 is gone. Discontinued. Has been for nearly a year (June 2011). Apple has made it available ONLY to Enterprise clients as additional seats. The only place you will find it is eBay.

But as a student, if this is your intended career path, I suggest you start looking at the other options. Avid Media Composer for students is $299. And it is designed for working with film...that's a core function. FCP-X is not. Adobe Premiere is not. If you plan on working in film, Avid Media Composer is your option.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Nick DeMicco
Re: Log and Capture - Not Progressive Problem
on Apr 6, 2012 at 6:51:26 pm

Okay, after much hassle, the school informed me how to get the rest of my files. I am hoping to get them installed and ready for use in the next day or two. I just have to find time to go get the discs.

Anyway, would you be able to give me the steps on how to do this?

And is it possible that the miniDV is formatted at 24 fps, not 29.97 fps? I was reading and it seems 24 fps IS an option on MiniDV tapes and many cameras have that option to shoot. Or is it just that it formats the 24 fps into the 29.97 fps automatically through pulldown?

Sorry but I'm not entirely sure how this whole thing works.
Basically, I know that I shot my footage on an Arriflex SR I. I shot 16mm Color FILM at 24 fps, using Kodak film.
The lab I brought it to (Postworks in SOHO, New York City) then processed it and transferred it to MiniDV.
I'm not entirely sure how they transferred. All I know is basically what you've told me.

Now, I have the miniDV tapes and just want to capture at the best quality (and keep the film look and frame rate).

So what is the best way to capture the footage and how do I correct it (if necessary) through Cinema Tools?

Thanks again for all the help. It means a lot.


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Shane Ross
Re: Log and Capture - Not Progressive Problem
on Apr 6, 2012 at 7:03:04 pm

[Nick DeMicco] "Anyway, would you be able to give me the steps on how to do this?"

Tis in the manual...

http://documentation.apple.com/en/cinematools/usermanual/index.html#chapter...

[Nick DeMicco] "And is it possible that the miniDV is formatted at 24 fps, not 29.97 fps? "

Nope. DV doesn't run at 24fps. Only 29.97fps. Unless you are using PAL tapes and cameras and decks...then it is 25fps. But you are in the US, no?

[Nick DeMicco] " I was reading and it seems 24 fps IS an option on MiniDV tapes and many cameras have that option to shoot. Or is it just that it formats the 24 fps into the 29.97 fps automatically through pulldown?"

They record 24p as 29.97. NO DV camera shoots 23.98. Some offer the means to shoot 23.98 and have the ability to be captured as 23.98 via FCP. But those flags must be present in order for FCP to do this. Telecined footage on tape does not have these flags.

[Nick DeMicco] "So what is the best way to capture the footage and how do I correct it (if necessary) through Cinema Tools?"

Read the manual link. Or these:

http://documentation.apple.com/en/finalcutpro/usermanual/index.html#chapter...

http://documentation.apple.com/en/cinematools/usermanual/index.html#chapter...

[Nick DeMicco] "The lab I brought it to (Postworks in SOHO, New York City) then processed it and transferred it to MiniDV."

You say that they DO NOT have the option to telecine to a digital file? They can ONLY telecine to DV? They are WAY BEHIND in the times. I'd find somewhere else to go. SD...and DV specifically...is dying. Dead in most areas...especially NY. Your gorgeous 16mm film, on DV...ugh. Horrid format. Well, it is still 4:3, right? it isn't SUPER 16mm? That I'd telecine to 720p or 1080p. The workflow you have there, telecine to DV...is best when you are planning on negative cutting (if you got an accompanying ALE or FLEX file)...or if they telecined to HD tape, like HDCAM, and made DV masters. DV is such a bad format these days. VERY old workflow.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Nick DeMicco
Re: Log and Capture - Not Progressive Problem
on Apr 8, 2012 at 4:37:39 am

Well after all this, I've officially gotten to the most frustrating step of all...

I have OSX Lion...
and CINEMA TOOLS does NOT run on OSX Lion.

.......
*frustration*

Anyway, I guess I will have to find a MAC with an older OSX and attempt to use Cinema Tools on there.


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Nick DeMicco
Re: Log and Capture - Not Progressive Problem
on Apr 9, 2012 at 2:58:06 pm

[Shane Ross] "You say that they DO NOT have the option to telecine to a digital file? They can ONLY telecine to DV? They are WAY BEHIND in the times. I'd find somewhere else to go. SD...and DV specifically...is dying. Dead in most areas...especially NY. Your gorgeous 16mm film, on DV...ugh. Horrid format. Well, it is still 4:3, right? it isn't SUPER 16mm? That I'd telecine to 720p or 1080p. The workflow you have there, telecine to DV...is best when you are planning on negative cutting (if you got an accompanying ALE or FLEX file)...or if they telecined to HD tape, like HDCAM, and made DV masters. DV is such a bad format these days. VERY old workflow."


I'd love to have transferred it to 720 or 1080p. I was only given the option to use DV or HDV at that lab. AND this is the lab my school recommends.

Well now I know to find a better lab for future projects.

Regardless, I have my files captures to my computer as interlaced-29.97 fps. Later today, I am going to a friend to use his Cinema Tools to do the reverse telecine process. Hopefully it works well and I can finally start editing this movie.

Thank you for all the help and I will let you know how it goes.


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