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Adam Acres
Connecting old broadcast monitor to Fcp in new thunderbolt Imac????
on Feb 26, 2012 at 7:21:35 pm

Hello
I wondered if anyone can help with three things :(
I have an IMac 27 inch, full spec, with thunderbolt ports.


1. I want to connect a broadcast monitor, namely the Sony 14" PVM-14M4E broadcast monitor for reference on apple color and or fcp.

2. I want to be able to HD capture up to 60fps 1080p

3. I also capture and convert analogue VHS etc

I am looking at using either Black Magic, AJA products or Matrox MXO2 to achieve this. I have no idea if there is a system out there that can help achieve all this above with connections.
Is there a product to allow this? I am very interested in what black magic can offer in the world of thunderbolt for the above.

Now I know many on here can get somewhat sensitive about budgets, costs vs professionalism so I apologize if I offend anyone, but the budget is around £500 or more.

I work as an fcp editor, but I am upgrading my studio for grading, and analogue conversions on the side. I already have tft monitors with 1 of the two thunderbolt used for this.

Can anyone make any suggestions?

Would be very much appreciated ☺


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Connecting old broadcast monitor to Fcp in new thunderbolt Imac????
on Feb 26, 2012 at 8:17:07 pm

The three major I/O manufacturers all have T-bolt solutions now.

AJA has the IO-XT: http://www.aja.com/products/io/io-xt.php

Matrox has a Thunderbolt add-on adapter that enables all of their existing MXO2 line to connect as T-bolt devices.

And BlackMagic has several T-bolt devices as well.

Feel free to write or call if you need help deciding which of these solutions has the most benefits for you. We carry and support all of these solutions.

David Roth Weiss
ProMax Systems
Burbank
DRW@ProMax.com
http://www.ProMax.com

David is a Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Apple Final Cut Pro forum.


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Adam Acres
Re: Connecting old broadcast monitor to Fcp in new thunderbolt Imac????
on Feb 26, 2012 at 8:58:53 pm

Hi
Thanks so much for your prompt reply David.
I am aware of the support for thunderbolt devices out there, there is a lot. It is just trying to select the one for my needs ie that enables me to connect a CRT reference monitor for referencing, HD capture up to 1080p 60fps and analogue conversions, ie VHS, HI8 etc in one.
Now this might not be possible?

Any help would be much appreciated.
Kind regards

Adam
UK, england.


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Shane Ross
Re: Connecting old broadcast monitor to Fcp in new thunderbolt Imac????
on Feb 26, 2012 at 8:54:44 pm

[Adam Acres] "Is there a product to allow this?"

ONly option will be Matrox MXO2 LE or MXO2. They have Thunderbolt adapters, and do analog inputs. The AJA and Black-Magic options don't have analog inputs.

[Adam Acres] "2. I want to be able to HD capture up to 60fps 1080p"

Sorry, but no camera shoots that format...except a Panasonic consumer level tapeless camera. And that doesn't need a capture card to input...it's tapeless. There is no 1080p60 tape format.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Connecting old broadcast monitor to Fcp in new thunderbolt Imac????
on Feb 26, 2012 at 9:12:00 pm

[Shane Ross] "ONly option will be Matrox MXO2 LE or MXO2. They have Thunderbolt adapters, and do analog inputs. The AJA and Black-Magic options don't have analog inputs."

Shane is correct, however the AJA io XT can be connected to your older monitor via an SDI to analog converter.

David Roth Weiss
ProMax Systems
Burbank
DRW@ProMax.com
http://www.ProMax.com

David is a Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Apple Final Cut Pro forum.


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Adam Acres
Re: Connecting old broadcast monitor to Fcp in new thunderbolt Imac????
on Feb 26, 2012 at 11:43:36 pm

Wow thankyou both!
I was referring to 1080p60 as playback in tapeless sorry for confusion, as I know it does not exist. The imac 2011 somewhat lags on playback with the broadcast camera footage at 60fps 1080p, I am hoping the MXO2 allows for hd playback without the judder?
I am using g-raid with firewire 800 within fcp but it still lags.

Out of interest could you not use intensity shuttle or extreme from black magic with a sdi-analogue converter too? To allow hd playback, analogue conversion and reference monitor connection.

I know FCp doesn't allow more that one external device so it would have to be the device I assume?

Thanks so much for spending your time writing and helping me, it is much appreciated.

Adam


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Adam Acres
Re: Connecting old broadcast monitor to Fcp in new thunderbolt Imac????
on Feb 27, 2012 at 12:21:09 am

Hi also...
I forgot to mention I would be looking to attach VTR, betamax, hi-8 decks to the equation to render, edit and export in final cut studio.

Anyway maybe here from the masters soon! :)


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Connecting old broadcast monitor to Fcp in new thunderbolt Imac????
on Feb 27, 2012 at 12:34:41 am

[Adam Acres] "I forgot to mention I would be looking to attach VTR, betamax, hi-8 decks to the equation to render, edit and export in final cut studio.
"


The Matrox MXO2 LE has all the analog connections for this.

David Roth Weiss
ProMax Systems
Burbank
DRW@ProMax.com
http://www.ProMax.com

David is a Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Apple Final Cut Pro forum.


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Jerry Hofmann
Re: Connecting old broadcast monitor to Fcp in new thunderbolt Imac????
on Feb 27, 2012 at 12:25:48 am

The stutter is likely caused by the G-raid not keeping up with playback. The I/O gear won't help with this. You need faster drives to get the frames from dropping.

Jerry

Apple Certified Trainer, Producer, Writer, Director Editor, Gun for Hire and other things. I ski. My Blog: http://blogs.creativecow.net/Jerry-Hofmann

Current DVD:
http://store.creativecow.net/p/81/jerry_hofmanns_final_cut_system_setup

8-Core 3.0 Intel Mac Pro, Dual 2 gig G5, AJA Kona SD, AJA Kona 2, Huge Systems Array UL3D, AJA Io HD, 17" MBP, Matrox MXO2 with MAX - Cinema Displays I have a 22" that I paid 4k for still working. G4 with Kona SD card, and SCSI card.


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Connecting old broadcast monitor to Fcp in new thunderbolt Imac????
on Feb 27, 2012 at 12:33:03 am

[Jerry Hofmann] "The stutter is likely caused by the G-raid not keeping up with playback. The I/O gear won't help with this. You need faster drives to get the frames from dropping."

I agree with Jerry. Your iMac is limited however, to either a four bay firewire 800 solution, or to a Thunderbolt solution, such as the promise Pegasus.

David Roth Weiss
ProMax Systems
Burbank
DRW@ProMax.com
http://www.ProMax.com

David is a Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Apple Final Cut Pro forum.


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Connecting old broadcast monitor to Fcp in new thunderbolt Imac????
on Feb 27, 2012 at 12:39:50 am

[Adam Acres] "Out of interest could you not use intensity shuttle or extreme from black magic with a sdi-analogue converter too? To allow hd playback, analogue conversion and reference monitor connection."

Too many things to think about here Adam... You're pushing the envelope now. :)

You've have to decide what's most important and go in that direction. An iMac is limited in some respects and can't do everything.

The Matrox LE with the Thunderbolt adapter seems like your best bet.

David Roth Weiss
ProMax Systems
Burbank
DRW@ProMax.com
http://www.ProMax.com

David is a Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Apple Final Cut Pro forum.


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Shane Ross
Re: Connecting old broadcast monitor to Fcp in new thunderbolt Imac????
on Feb 27, 2012 at 1:46:52 am

1080p60 playback doesn't exist with any IO device. Because that isn't a standard format. 1080 only plays back at 30fps. On TV, BluRay and web. The only 60fps format that is standard is 720p. 1080p60 exists I guess to make smooth slo motion conversion.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Adam Acres
Re: Connecting old broadcast monitor to Fcp in new thunderbolt Imac????
on Feb 27, 2012 at 10:25:06 am

I seem to disagree...why does intensity shuttle thunderbolt from blackmagic design list as 1080p60 HD playback support then?

http://www.blackmagic-design.com/uk/products/intensity/techspecs/

Maybe we are both confused here?

I think I have overstayed my welcome for now. So thank you all sincerely for all of your help!


Adam


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Shane Ross
Re: Connecting old broadcast monitor to Fcp in new thunderbolt Imac????
on Feb 27, 2012 at 3:19:56 pm

SO it does! Still doesn't change the fact that 1080p60 doesn't exist as a distribution medium. No BluRay, no tape, no web...computer playback will struggle.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Bret Williams
Re: Connecting old broadcast monitor to Fcp in new thunderbolt Imac????
on Feb 27, 2012 at 6:02:26 pm

Well, it doesn't exist yet. But it does. Since they just released the extreme 3 months late, I wouldnt hold my breath.


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Bret Williams
Re: Connecting old broadcast monitor to Fcp in new thunderbolt Imac????
on Feb 27, 2012 at 1:21:43 pm

I guess I don't understand. The intensity extreme and matrox mxo2 mini both have 3 types of analog input and output. I use both connected to an iMac via tmunderbolt. I connect both to a pvm20 via component analog and to an HS LCD via HDMI. The matrox USA more powerful for conversions up/down or cross. It can also output multiple streams- for example it can cross convert 720p to 1080i on output while simeultaneously outputting a hardware converted 486i SD singal either center cut or letterboxed. That little mini can do nearly as much as a full blown AJA except tape deck control- but a cheap USB serial port adapter and rs422 cable does that. The downside of the mini and extreme are the connections. No SDI or XLR or BNC. They're also limited to 2channel analog input.


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Jerry Hofmann
Re: Connecting old broadcast monitor to Fcp in new thunderbolt Imac????
on Feb 27, 2012 at 1:45:09 pm

Well... that's not quite right, when the conversions are going on, the Decklink and Matrox products are using the computer's CPU for the heavy lifting (taxing your system for other purposes like RT playback) where the AJA products do the job internally. Plus the Io XT has the only T-Bolt connections that loops through, so in every other case you can't use a second computer display with your system (they have to be at the end of the TB chain).

If it were me, I'd buy the Io from AJA for this reason alone. Costs more, does more.

Hoewever in the OP's case, he's also going to need an Analog to SDI converter to capture the old VHS, Hi 8 etc. Plus he gets desk control with the Io XT.

I could never give up a second computer display for my main editing system..

Jerry

Apple Certified Trainer, Producer, Writer, Director Editor, Gun for Hire and other things. I ski. My Blog: http://blogs.creativecow.net/Jerry-Hofmann

Current DVD:
http://store.creativecow.net/p/81/jerry_hofmanns_final_cut_system_setup

8-Core 3.0 Intel Mac Pro, Dual 2 gig G5, AJA Kona SD, AJA Kona 2, Huge Systems Array UL3D, AJA Io HD, 17" MBP, Matrox MXO2 with MAX - Cinema Displays I have a 22" that I paid 4k for still working. G4 with Kona SD card, and SCSI card.


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Bret Williams
Re: Connecting old broadcast monitor to Fcp in new thunderbolt Imac????
on Feb 27, 2012 at 5:52:32 pm

The matrox mini is absolutely doing everything in hardware. Can you point to any documentation that shows any different? If it its, it doesn't matter. The matrox mxo2 mini upscales and downscales beautifully and adds pulldown, etc. It does not tax the system any different. It plays out SD and HD at all times. I've never had a hit on my RT by doing a center cut SD output to my PVM while simultaneously uprezzing 720p to 1080i on my HDMI connected HD monitor. And I use the matrox with a 2006 MacPro, AND use it on the top of the line 27" iMac with Thunderbolt adapter. The matrox abilities are exactly the same. I also have a intensity I've been putting through the tests. It specifies on it's website which downscales to SD are software.

Why would you need some sort of SDI convertor for digitizing old analog stuff? They're component or composite. There's no SDI on a MXO2 mini or a extreme. They're solely analog or HDMI. I load in VHS stuff for friends all the time. I digitize betacam via component to ProRes. Use an adapter I've had since version 1.2 of Final Cut Pro when I digitized betacam with deck control. It's like $40.

People working with SDI machines need the $2k-$4k solutions. If you're working with old analog and mostly file ingest, then oddly enough, the cheapest solutions are actually more appropriate (right connectors for VHS for example) and extremely more affordable.


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Shane Ross
Re: Connecting old broadcast monitor to Fcp in new thunderbolt Imac????
on Feb 27, 2012 at 6:00:16 pm

I'm with Brett. The Decklink stuff does do some things in software (upconverting, for example), but the MXO2 line does everything in hardware, just like the AJA hardware. The ONLY AJA hardware that takes on more duties than normal is the AJA IO HD...that converts to ProRes internally, making it ideal for laptops...running FCP Legacy. But other than that, the AJA IO XT and Matrox MXO2 line do all the same things in hardware.

AJA has better tech support and a better record with stability...thus the price difference.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Bret Williams
Re: Connecting old broadcast monitor to Fcp in new thunderbolt Imac????
on Feb 27, 2012 at 9:57:15 pm

The guys on a budget folks. He pointed that out. If a $500 solution (or even $299 solution) does exactly what he needs without SDI converters and such then that's the answer. But the only thing I don't get is the "capture HD at 1080p60" comment. He doesn't mention XDCam or any tape format, so I assume he's just not versed in formats and is probably trying to capture Xbox at the highest frame rate possible or something. Otherwise, some sort of SDI would be needed unless the HD decks have hdmi like HDV decks. I've never used an HD deck everything comes to me from xdcam ex, p2, and canon. Occasionally cameraman will shoot varicam but almost all the camer ops have a kipro and just hand you a drive of prores 422. I really don't think of capture anymore.

Another thing- he mentioned Color, but that a dead platform. The free resolve app only works with BM products. That's a heck of an argument. The BM ultra studio 3D is probably one of the best bets for resolve, SDI, HDMI, and all analog formats. The BM beta driver also seem to work in FCP, FCP X, and Premiere fairly flawlessly. The intensity shuttle is not going to work with resolve I believe, but the extreme will. I don't know about tech support. I pretty much have never found much value in tech support. What tech support does one need with an AJA?


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Jerry Hofmann
Re: Connecting old broadcast monitor to Fcp in new thunderbolt Imac????
on Feb 27, 2012 at 6:04:15 pm

I've asked the manufactures this very question about where the processing happens. It's in board on the AJA box only in the above mentioned boxes.

You'd need the analog to SDI converters to use an Io XT was what I thought I said. The others have analog inputs.

But still, none of them allow for the extra computer display via TB connection. None of them loops the TB connection save the AJA box, right?

Jerry

Apple Certified Trainer, Producer, Writer, Director Editor, Gun for Hire and other things. I ski. My Blog: http://blogs.creativecow.net/Jerry-Hofmann

Current DVD:
http://store.creativecow.net/p/81/jerry_hofmanns_final_cut_system_setup

8-Core 3.0 Intel Mac Pro, Dual 2 gig G5, AJA Kona SD, AJA Kona 2, Huge Systems Array UL3D, AJA Io HD, 17" MBP, Matrox MXO2 with MAX - Cinema Displays I have a 22" that I paid 4k for still working. G4 with Kona SD card, and SCSI card.


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Shane Ross
Re: Connecting old broadcast monitor to Fcp in new thunderbolt Imac????
on Feb 27, 2012 at 6:12:12 pm

[Jerry Hofmann] "But still, none of them allow for the extra computer display via TB connection. None of them loops the TB connection save the AJA box, right?"

That is true.

And what "processing" are we talking about exactly?

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Jerry Hofmann
Re: Connecting old broadcast monitor to Fcp in new thunderbolt Imac????
on Feb 28, 2012 at 12:23:02 am

Up and down conversion, pulldown, are all done in box on the XT. It's basically a Kona 3 in a box. Does dual link too, So it's all hardware conversion not software. Is that what you mean? Also does dual link SDI for 444 etc. BUt all those conversions would be onboard the box using firmware not software and your computer's CPU. Don't think Matrox's boxes do this all internally either. I could be wrong, but Wayne there told me they were offloading this processing. They are using software/CPU for the job.

This is the biggest reason the XT appears to cost more. It does more.. loops too so Laptops come into play big time with it.

Jerry

Apple Certified Trainer, Producer, Writer, Director Editor, Gun for Hire and other things. I ski. My Blog: http://blogs.creativecow.net/Jerry-Hofmann

Current DVD:
http://store.creativecow.net/p/81/jerry_hofmanns_final_cut_system_setup

8-Core 3.0 Intel Mac Pro, Dual 2 gig G5, AJA Kona SD, AJA Kona 2, Huge Systems Array UL3D, AJA Io HD, 17" MBP, Matrox MXO2 with MAX - Cinema Displays I have a 22" that I paid 4k for still working. G4 with Kona SD card, and SCSI card.


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Shane Ross
Re: Connecting old broadcast monitor to Fcp in new thunderbolt Imac????
on Feb 28, 2012 at 12:47:45 am

[Jerry Hofmann] "Don't think Matrox's boxes do this all internally either. I could be wrong, but Wayne there told me they were offloading this processing"

The do hardware up/cross/down conversion. The processing it doesn't do is to ProRes. But neither does the IO XT or IO EXPRESS.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Jerry Hofmann
Re: Connecting old broadcast monitor to Fcp in new thunderbolt Imac????
on Feb 27, 2012 at 6:19:59 pm

Of course with an iMac, the loop through might not be a necessity... or is it? it's got two ports where a lappy only has the one.

Jerry

Apple Certified Trainer, Producer, Writer, Director Editor, Gun for Hire and other things. I ski. My Blog: http://blogs.creativecow.net/Jerry-Hofmann

Current DVD:
http://store.creativecow.net/p/81/jerry_hofmanns_final_cut_system_setup

8-Core 3.0 Intel Mac Pro, Dual 2 gig G5, AJA Kona SD, AJA Kona 2, Huge Systems Array UL3D, AJA Io HD, 17" MBP, Matrox MXO2 with MAX - Cinema Displays I have a 22" that I paid 4k for still working. G4 with Kona SD card, and SCSI card.


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Bret Williams
Re: Connecting old broadcast monitor to Fcp in new thunderbolt Imac????
on Feb 27, 2012 at 9:41:54 pm

Correct. I have Pegasus tb raid. You plug in BM to that or plug the 2nd monitor into that. Plug other into 2nd port. Loop through is nice on AJA, but hardly worth extra cost.


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Adam Acres
Re: Connecting old broadcast monitor to Fcp in new thunderbolt Imac????
on Mar 3, 2012 at 9:51:57 am

Thanks Brett! Got there eventually.
I guessed I am going to for a new pegasus system and a matrox mini with thunderbolt adapter.
Which will allows me to hopefully achieve what I mentioned.

Thanks!


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Sean Tarbuck
Re: Connecting old broadcast monitor to Fcp in new thunderbolt Imac????
on Mar 4, 2012 at 6:38:18 pm

HI Brett

You seem to be a man with straight answers!

I know I may now not be popular on a new post within a post but this post confuses me it seems like everyone is going around in circles…

Sorry to ask and I mean this! It is so great that you spend the time to help out the amateurs…exactly the same as Adam just need a direct answer.

What I need to achieve is a device that enables me to connect to an IMAC full spec thunderbolt and connect the following devices at full quality signal:

1. I have two monitors

A. Old broadcast monitor same as Adam which will need to be connected

B. Separate DELL HD monitor which has, DVI, HDMI, VGA etc

2. I also need to connect a device that allows HD playback.

3. Connect BNC, RCA and or S-video for VHS and analogue transfer at full signal not via one of those crappy Elgato like devices that put audio out of synch.

So this is what I want to achieve…

Just looking for some professional advice, and the cheapest alternative to making all of this possible, minus the loyalty of the above products.

Maybe someone can help


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Sean Tarbuck
Re: Connecting old broadcast monitor to Fcp in new thunderbolt Imac????
on Mar 4, 2012 at 6:55:18 pm

I should mention I work on FCP so will need RT playback and I use Apple color for Grading. I hopefully will be able to transport the screens to my broadcast monitor and use the other screens namely, imac and dell for other workflow...?

I will await your advice

Kindest regards

SEAN


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Connecting old broadcast monitor to Fcp in new thunderbolt Imac????
on Mar 4, 2012 at 7:40:17 pm

[Sean Tarbuck] "HI Brett

You seem to be a man with straight answers!

I know I may now not be popular on a new post within a post but this post confuses me it seems like everyone is going around in circles…"


Nice opening Sean, you just insulted me, Shane, and Jerry, three of the forum leaders here, with a combined accumulated knowledge of about 100-plus years.

The answers you're looking for are not rocket science, and your options for I/O on an iMac are extremely limited, discussed in detail above, and reiterated more than once. Exactly what information are you missing that you feel was not a "straight answer" or was "going in circles?"

David Roth Weiss
ProMax Systems
Burbank
DRW@ProMax.com
http://www.ProMax.com
Sales | Integration | Support


David is a Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Apple Final Cut Pro forum.


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Shane Ross
Re: Connecting old broadcast monitor to Fcp in new thunderbolt Imac????
on Mar 4, 2012 at 8:31:09 pm

Whatever.

We give advice, and options. If people take the advice, or ignore it...up to them.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Adam Acres
Re: Connecting old broadcast monitor to Fcp in new thunderbolt Imac????
on Mar 4, 2012 at 9:23:14 pm

It is all there Sean you just need to read it!

Thanks to all you guys for your invaluable help!!


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John Aiken
Re: Connecting old broadcast monitor to Fcp in new thunderbolt Imac????
on Sep 30, 2012 at 9:09:29 pm

hi, i have the same problem i'd like to plug my old professional crt monitor, and capture my vhs, i have a macbook pro with thunderbolt and a pegasus R6 and cinema display 30, i looking for buying aja io xt case i need the 2 thunderbolt input for chain, but i'l like to be sure to input analog !! what king of analog to SDI converters we wold need (pict) ?

Thanks best regards


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Shane Ross
Re: Connecting old broadcast monitor to Fcp in new thunderbolt Imac????
on Sep 30, 2012 at 9:54:33 pm

You want this:

http://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/miniconverters/models/

Analog to SDI converter.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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John Aiken
Re: Connecting old broadcast monitor to Fcp in new thunderbolt Imac????
on Sep 30, 2012 at 10:13:31 pm

hi,
really !! i thought it would be just an adapter like http://edigitaldeals.net/female-bnc-to-rca-male-adapter.html , maybe it's easier for me to sell my macbook pro (bought this january 2012) and buy an imac 27 with an intensity extrem blakmagic here http://www.blackmagicdesign.com/fr/products/intensity/ or ultra studio UltraStudio Express will be maybe cheaper !! no ? and won't have the problem with the second thundebolt plug that i need no ?

Thanks


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Shane Ross
Re: Connecting old broadcast monitor to Fcp in new thunderbolt Imac????
on Sep 30, 2012 at 10:22:37 pm

That just converts the RCA connector to a BNC. It'll still be a COMPOSITE signal. And the IoXT only has SDI inputs via that connector. It won't recognize the composite signal on the SDI in port. So it isn't that simple.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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John Aiken
Re: Connecting old broadcast monitor to Fcp in new thunderbolt Imac????
on Oct 1, 2012 at 8:46:41 am

hum thanks, that i was wondering i was not sure ! so better for me black magic, thanks


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