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Confused by Telecine/Reverse Pulldown Issues

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Andy Bernstein
Confused by Telecine/Reverse Pulldown Issues
on Feb 24, 2012 at 5:03:47 pm

I have a project I'm trying to salvage, and would appreciate help from minds much smarter than my own.

I live captured 10 minutes of footage from my Canon HV20 into a MacBook Pro using a Matrox card and HDMI cable, with ProRes compression. The frame size in FCP 6 shows up as 29.97. I removed pulldown in Compressor and changed the frame rate to 23.976 and then edited and output again to compressor for h.264 compression for my final file, but I see it has significant interlacing artifacts.

Looking at the file that first came out of Compressor, I see that it started out fine, but after a few minutes there are still telecined frames (sorry if I'm not describing this right -- I'm an amateur). I thought maybe Compressor was sloppy so I tried JES Deinterlacer on the original clip, but Inverse Telecine was greyed out. It seems the original mov file was mysteriously captured at 28.62 fps, and JES requires 29 as a minimum.

So I converted the original 28.62 to 29.97 in Compressor leaving it untouched otherwise and then passed it through JES, but that also left telecined frames.

I already edited this piece, and even though it's only 10 minutes, it would be nice not to have to reshoot and reedit. I thought I could somehow get the original clip reverse telecined and then connect the edited footage in FCP to that clip instead of to the one that has issues, but I could use some help. If I'm not explaining things correctly or you have questions, please let me know.

Thanks in advance.


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Dave LaRonde
Re: Confused by Telecine/Reverse Pulldown Issues
on Feb 24, 2012 at 5:22:17 pm

Sorry, but you can't remove the pulldown after the fact. You have to remove it BEFORE you start editing.

One reason: in your 29.97 edit, you've made numerous cuts on video frames that would not have even existed as 23.98 footage.

A related reason: if you try to export the completed edit and THEN remove the pulldown, those cuts on frames that wouldn't exist represent changes in the 3:2 pulldown cadence. Therefore, the cadence isn't consistent: it keeps changing. And that makes consistent pulldown removal impossible.

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Andy Bernstein
Re: Confused by Telecine/Reverse Pulldown Issues
on Feb 24, 2012 at 5:29:52 pm

Thanks for the response. I was afraid of this. I thought that because I did do pulldown removal first and then edited, and then found out that the pulldown removal wasn't exactly successful, I could do it successfully and then reconnect media to the properly de-telecined clip. But I guess that if the first pulldown removal didn't work, I edited footage with pulldown in it, and so I have to start over. Lesson learned, and I'll make sure I check the JES or Compressor output more closely next time to make sure there are no artifacts of telecining.


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Andy Bernstein
Re: Confused by Telecine/Reverse Pulldown Issues
on Feb 24, 2012 at 5:40:54 pm

Dave, a quick follow-up question: When I re-edit, is there a way to still use this footage? How can I correctly remove the pulldown this time? JES isn't an option because the clip has a 28.62 frame rate, and Compressor seems to mess up the removal. Do I have to reshoot, or is there something I can do to get the pulldown out of this clip? I tried changing the frame rate and then running it through JES, but that didn't get rid of it. Any ideas?

Thanks again.


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Dave LaRonde
Re: Confused by Telecine/Reverse Pulldown Issues
on Feb 24, 2012 at 5:51:47 pm

I'd use the search term Reverse Telecine in FCP Help. I don't have to remove pulldown from my footage, so I don't know how to do it off the top of my head.

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Dave LaRonde
Re: Confused by Telecine/Reverse Pulldown Issues
on Feb 24, 2012 at 8:56:49 pm

I just re-read the original post. Did you REALLY try to remove pulldown using Compressor? I think you may have simply changed the frame rate to 23.976 (aka 23.98), leaving the pulldown present in the footage.

I hope you kept the original media files so you can start over.... on duplicates, of course.

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Andy Bernstein
Re: Confused by Telecine/Reverse Pulldown Issues
on Feb 24, 2012 at 9:17:24 pm

Yes, I did try removing the pulldown using Compressor. I basically follow this sequence:

http://blog.abelcine.com/2011/08/19/simple-workflow-for-removing-23-pull-do...

(Though I use ProRes 422 instead of ProRes 422 HQ)

It usually works fine. But in this case, something about this particular clip and aberrations in the capture have flummoxed things. I still have the original clip with 2:3 interlacing, but no matter what I do, I can't get the pulldown out cleanly. Compressor and JES Deinterlacer both produce clips with interlacing. I think I'm going to have to re-record on Monday to fix this, unless anyone has a better idea.


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Dave LaRonde
Re: Confused by Telecine/Reverse Pulldown Issues
on Feb 24, 2012 at 10:03:46 pm

The only reason I can think for either of those not working is that you originally captured a lot of shots as one big, long clip rather than individual shots, which is what they should be.

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Daryl K Davis
Re: Confused by Telecine/Reverse Pulldown Issues
on Feb 25, 2012 at 3:24:28 am

I've always reverse telecine using Cinema Tools. Never had any issues.

-------------------------
DK Davis / Editor/ Post Super
-------------------------


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Ana Toader
Re: Confused by Telecine/Reverse Pulldown Issues
on Jun 5, 2012 at 11:04:18 am

Hello,

Daryl, i see you are using Cinematools, so i hope you can help me.
From 2007 until 2011 we were shooting one documentary movie with Panasonic AG-DVX100, it was used 24p, so now i am trying to reverse telecine, but some of the clips Cinematools looks to process, but at the end my .rev file doesen't exist

Now, i don't understand why, and how can it be?
I was mostly working with PAL materials so far, so in this case i am a bit confused.

i have an iMac, Intel Core i5, 2.7 GHz, 8GB memory, AMD Radeon HD 6770M


Thank you

Ana Toader


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