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Red Epic and FCP workflow having transcoded ProRes offlines outside of FCP

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Dan Gibling
Red Epic and FCP workflow having transcoded ProRes offlines outside of FCP
on Jan 15, 2012 at 11:52:13 pm

Hi all,

A quick couple of questions regarding Red Epic and fcp 7 workflow.

I have just shot on Red Epic 5k and had my DIT transcode the rushes into Apple ProRes (lt) for my offline edit on my iMac using FCP7

When I have shot Red before (Red One), I have followed the procedure in the helpful RED-fcp white paper and transcoded to ProRes during the fcp ingest process via the Log and Transfer window. Thus the entire workflow, through to the onlining back to R3D and taking into colour has been straight forward.

But having had the DIT transcode the rushes outside of the FCP workflow I am faced with two questions:

1) How do I import and log the files in the proper manner - ie half the benefit of transcoding in Log and Transfer is the logging part - creating my own log notes as well as having the correct reel no. baked into the logged clip. Now it would seem I am almost searching for an 'Log and Import' window that does not exist - do i just have to edit the clip details directly in the bin?

2) The entire process of onlining my project after the edit. All the transcoded ProRes(lt) files have had the file names kept the same as the r3D files, but this (aside from duration etc) is all that really equates them to the r3D files. Through not using the Log and Transfer process, I am outside of my usual workflow and knowledge-base and do not want to make a vital mistake at the offline stage. Can I even online the Epic 5k files for fcp, and export to colour? Do I have to use Redcine-X to online in Redcode 2k? Do i just forget the redcode and online in ProRes 4444? How do i compile my online and just online the portions of the clips that are used in my sequence - is this done with an EDL / XML? I am very ignorant about EDL methods and have just let media manager take me through the process all neatly before...

There are great guides to the Red-fcp workflow on here and the wider web, but i would seem now the helpful DIT has transcoded for me, I am outside of the normal fcp flow and in unfamiliar teritory without a walk through guide!

Any suggestions on the best offline/online workflow from here on in would be most appreciated!

Many thanks,
Dan


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Red Epic and FCP workflow having transcoded ProRes offlines outside of FCP
on Jan 16, 2012 at 2:09:58 pm

I have some suggestions, but do you know how the LT files were made?

Using RCX I take it?


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Dan Gibling
Re: Red Epic and FCP workflow having transcoded ProRes offlines outside of FCP
on Jan 16, 2012 at 7:49:25 pm

Yes thats correct, in Redcine-x. According to the DIT it was a very basic transcode, just selecting ProRes (lt), 25fp and 1920x1080 - leaving all other settings as they come.

Hope this helps.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Red Epic and FCP workflow having transcoded ProRes offlines outside of FCP
on Jan 16, 2012 at 8:06:04 pm

[Dan Gibling] "Hope this helps."

Absolutely.

As far as the logging, you can change whatever you want in FCP. Rename, add markers/notes/descriptions, just don't rename the original files. This way you have clip name, tc and reel to allow a reconnect.

At the end, you will export a simple cuts only XML/EDL to RCX (or RCX Pro, which is a bit better as it handles multiple video layers and other upgrades, but still in beta) and you can then either retranscode or connect to R3D and grade there, or export flat Log movies for a grade. You can then send an XML back to FCP and reconnect to the transcoded material.

Epic files aren't supported in Color, unfortunately. I recently completed an edit which had some Epic footage and I wanted to grade in Color. I did my edit, sent an XML to RCX Pro, and rendered out flat ProRes 444 movies @ Red Log Film. This allowed me to get a decent grade out of Color as it's the tool I have for now. Other tools will allow you to grade right from the Epic R3D files.

Color/Quicktime only allows files that are 4000x4000 so you won't be able to render at the full 5K using a QT movie.

What is your deliverable?

Jeremy


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Dan Gibling
Re: Red Epic and FCP workflow having transcoded ProRes offlines outside of FCP
on Jan 18, 2012 at 11:56:45 am

Jeremy,

Thank you so much for taking the time to reply and impart your knowledge, it restores faith...

So working without Resolve or the like, and with what I have (FCP, Redcine-X pro and Colour) this is my intended workflow, could you let me know if ive understood correctly?:

Simple 1 or 2 layer sequence in fcp, export XML.
Open XML in Redcine-x Pro
Retranscode timeline to 2k Pro-Res 4444 and export XML
Open XML in FCP.
Send this sequence to colour and grade as normal.

So I am right in thinking I cant 'create' the kind of r3D files that I am used to grading in colour, that bring up the Red tab where i can change the ISO etc?

What are the 'flat Log movies' you speak of?

My output format will be 1080 Apple ProRes 422 (HQ) and a variety of compressed h264's, nothing too high end.

Many thanks again Jeremy,

Dan


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Red Epic and FCP workflow having transcoded ProRes offlines outside of FCP
on Jan 18, 2012 at 1:41:44 pm

[Dan Gibling] "
Simple 1 or 2 layer sequence in fcp, export XML.
Open XML in Redcine-x Pro
Retranscode timeline to 2k Pro-Res 4444 and export XML
Open XML in FCP.
Send this sequence to colour and grade as normal.
"


Yes, that's one way to do it. To preserve the most dynamic range, I'd set the color space to redcolor2 and the gamma to red log film and render. This will give you a flat baseline to work from in Color.

Try some test shots to see if you like it. You can always render with another gamma curve if you don't like log.

If going this route, you will not have the Red tab controls in Color. Color does not support Epic files, unfortunately.

If you like the Raw tools, you can grade in rcxpro if you'd like, but you'll need a red rocket card to get video out to a monitor.

[Dan Gibling] "What are the 'flat Log movies' you speak of?"

If you choose to use Color, you'd render your 444 transcodes out of RCX/Pro with a gamma curve called Red Log Film. This compresses the dynamic range logarithmically preserving highlights and shadows. The image will look very flat/washed out. In Color, you would then pull the dynamic range apart and restore a vibrant image.

This method takes a bit more grunt work over the red raw tools, but yields great results.

It really depends on of you want to use color without raw tools, or use rcxpro with raw tools.

Do you typically use a broadcast monitor?


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Dan Gibling
Re: Red Epic and FCP workflow having transcoded ProRes offlines outside of FCP
on Jan 18, 2012 at 2:14:51 pm

this is great Jeremy, my understanding is increasing...

I do not use a broadcast monitor at home - frustratingly the iMac does not seem easily compatible with getting out of the baked in colour space when sending out to a monitor, so after much debate i realised most people viewing my work would do so on a mac or a PC from vimeo or youtube - so I grade to those screens only.

Transcoding to Red Log film gamma curve and sending to Colour sounds the way to go. I did like the red raw tools, but what is Rcxp like as a grading program? Is there the ability to grade secondaries, track vignettes etc? If not id rather stick with the program and procedures i am familiar with.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Red Epic and FCP workflow having transcoded ProRes offlines outside of FCP
on Jan 18, 2012 at 3:48:59 pm

[Dan Gibling] "Transcoding to Red Log film gamma curve and sending to Colour sounds the way to go. I did like the red raw tools, but what is Rcxp like as a grading program?"

It's designed to give you Red tools for a primary grade (and is also used for conform/transcode). It is the Red Color tab on steroids.

There's no tracking or secondaries. RCX Pro gives you Alchemy and some other Red specific "exposure" tools.

If you're so inclined, you can do a primary grade in RCX, render out with the baked color/gamma of your choice, then finish all your secondaries in Color. It's worth playing around to see what will work for you.

The Red workflow is very flexible.

Jeremy


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zach nasits
Re: Red Epic and FCP workflow having transcoded ProRes offlines outside of FCP
on Jan 30, 2012 at 11:59:15 pm

This theory seems to be quite logical.

I am having some major issues with the roundtrip from FCP with LT files to REDCine-X 506, for which I plan to export final 4K RedLog Film Files. I simplified my FCP timeline to the most simple form.

There are a couple of issues I am running into..

1. FCP xml to RedCine doesn't bring up proper in/outs in RCX timeline. Correct clip but wrong in/out points. SO. I resorted to EDL's from FCP to RedCine, which do seem to match up.

2. Once I re-render RedLogFilm Files from REDCINE-X, I am not finding an XML method that allows FCP to re-create the RedCine X timeline in FCP???!?

At some point in testing phases, I recall that RedCine generated an "fcp XML" in the render directory, but now there is no XML showing up... and yes I have it selected in the output module.

When I export XML from the File menu in RCX, it translates back to the .R3D file, which is not supported in FCP or Color.

Any advice on how to retain the "FCP XML" export that used to show up in my RCX render directory?

Thank You,

Zach


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Red Epic and FCP workflow having transcoded ProRes offlines outside of FCP
on Jan 31, 2012 at 5:36:15 pm

What camera did you shoot with? Red One, Epic, Scarlet? I know you mentioned 4K.

[zach nasits] "1. FCP xml to RedCine doesn't bring up proper in/outs in RCX timeline. Correct clip but wrong in/out points. SO. I resorted to EDL's from FCP to RedCine, which do seem to match up."

Are you sure the frame rate is matching? Any speed changes?

[zach nasits] "2. Once I re-render RedLogFilm Files from REDCINE-X, I am not finding an XML method that allows FCP to re-create the RedCine X timeline in FCP???!? "

You should be able to to simply reconnect to the new media in FCP (dupe your timeline first)

Jeremy


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zach nasits
Re: Red Epic and FCP workflow having transcoded ProRes offlines outside of FCP
on Feb 1, 2012 at 12:08:44 am

Footage was shot with Epic, mix of 4k and 5k. I understand being able to relink manually, but feel like the XML roundtrip should work.

However, I was wrong in thinking that as RedCine506 seemed to be the issue with the XML out.

Seems to work okay with older version RCX501 thus far... think I will wait before going to Pro or 506.

Thanks and this is what I got so far.

ZN

ps. Premier is looking pretty good when I launch it and scrub through my .R3D files natively.... may have to learn a new editor.


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Dan Gibling
Re: Red Epic and FCP workflow having transcoded ProRes offlines outside of FCP
on Feb 14, 2012 at 2:55:35 pm

Hi Jeremy,

I am now locked with my offline and following your instructions to re-transcode to proRes 4444 in Red CineX pro, just hitting a few snags and wondered if you could enlighten me once more?

1) I export an XML from FCP and load in RedCineX Pro. it loads up fine.
2) I go through the timeline changing each clip to gamma space RedLog Film in the looks tab.
3) I then highlight all the clips and click on the export tab down the bottom and export using the ProRes 4444 codec which sets off the export saving to a unique folder on my HD

My question is, does this export process change the files I am viewing in my RedCineX timeline (which it doesnt seem to, they still point to the r3d files) and if not, how to I go about exporting an XML from RedCineX to FCP?

I understand I have now created the correct transcodes, but after the export, what is the process to get them back into my FCP timeline?

Also, if i have say two clips in my timeline of different parts of the same r3d file (of which I have many) the new exported transcodes seem to create a unique name for each in the export folder with the suffix _S001, _S002 etc. unless I get a timeline in RedCine X which references these exports, how does final cut reconnect to these changed clip names?

Many thanks, apologies for my ignorance!

Dan


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Red Epic and FCP workflow having transcoded ProRes offlines outside of FCP
on Feb 14, 2012 at 6:06:26 pm

[Dan Gibling] "My question is, does this export process change the files I am viewing in my RedCineX timeline (which it doesnt seem to, they still point to the r3d files) and if not, how to I go about exporting an XML from RedCineX to FCP?"

Did you not generate one in your export settings?

Jeremy


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Dan Gibling
Re: Red Epic and FCP workflow having transcoded ProRes offlines outside of FCP
on Feb 14, 2012 at 11:03:59 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Did you not generate one in your export settings?"

I checked the boxes to generate an XML and 'send to final cut pro', but i did see anything happen - where did the xml go, did it get saved somewhere?


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Red Epic and FCP workflow having transcoded ProRes offlines outside of FCP
on Feb 15, 2012 at 12:46:10 am

[Dan Gibling] "where did the xml go, did it get saved somewhere?"

It should be in the same directory as your transcoded footage.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Red Epic and FCP workflow having transcoded ProRes offlines outside of FCP
on Feb 15, 2012 at 12:47:56 am

By the way, if you son't have one you will need to get FCPReconnect from video tool shed which will reconnect your media by tell and tc instead of by name. It will sort out the naming process that you mentioned in a variety of ways.

http://www.videotoolshed.com/product/41/fcpreconnect

Jeremy


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Brandon McFarland
Re: Red Epic and FCP workflow having transcoded ProRes offlines outside of FCP
on Apr 10, 2012 at 11:05:11 pm

I'm having the same issue. Tried checking all of the boxes in the export settings, yet nothing is generated in the directory or anywhere else on the computer. It doesn't seem to be generating any kind of XML at all. If I try to do an export (shallow) XML, it links to the R3D's rather than the rendered out ProRes or DPX files.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Red Epic and FCP workflow having transcoded ProRes offlines outside of FCP
on Apr 10, 2012 at 11:08:53 pm

You need to set this up as a part of the transcoding operation.

If done after, you can use something like FCP reconnect or reconnect within the NLE.


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Brandon McFarland
Re: Red Epic and FCP workflow having transcoded ProRes offlines outside of FCP
on Apr 10, 2012 at 11:14:08 pm

It was set up as part of the transcode operation. No XML was generated. I've tried multiple times using the FCP XML option (also tried all the other options) as part of the export preset. I've tried it on multiple computers as well and with multiple types of transcoded media (ProRes4444, DPX, QT wrapper, etc) None of them generate a matching XML (or EDL).

Any ideas outside of the obvious that I might be overlooking?


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Red Epic and FCP workflow having transcoded ProRes offlines outside of FCP
on Apr 10, 2012 at 11:27:26 pm

What are your settings? Transcoding a bin? How are you setting this up?


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Brandon McFarland
Re: Red Epic and FCP workflow having transcoded ProRes offlines outside of FCP
on Apr 10, 2012 at 11:37:29 pm

Here are one of the setting combos used. This one is prores4444 3840x2160. I have the 'Generate FCP XML' checked so I can hopefully get an XML, but it hasn't worked yet...

Does this clear anything up?






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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Red Epic and FCP workflow having transcoded ProRes offlines outside of FCP
on Apr 10, 2012 at 11:42:50 pm

But are you exporting a RCX sequence?


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Brandon McFarland
Re: Red Epic and FCP workflow having transcoded ProRes offlines outside of FCP
on Apr 10, 2012 at 11:51:18 pm

Here is the entire process thus far:

1. Ingest footage using RCX Pro to ProRes proxies.
2. Edit in FCP.
3. Export XML > import to RCX Pro. (All media is reconnected fine and things going smoothly so far)
4. Grade Timeline in RCX Pro.
5. Attempt to export a folder of media + correlating XML from RCX Pro in order to finish the big batch of short timelines that are sitting in FCP waiting for this process to be figured out...

Step 5 generates a folder of media that all looks great, but no XML anywhere.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Red Epic and FCP workflow having transcoded ProRes offlines outside of FCP
on Apr 11, 2012 at 12:00:28 am

I'm not next to RCX at the moment, but in the export dialogue, you need to choose 'sequence'.

I'll get to a computer and direct you to the exact place.

Jeremy


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Red Epic and FCP workflow having transcoded ProRes offlines outside of FCP
on Apr 11, 2012 at 12:30:13 am

In the export presets window, make sure
"Export: Timeline (separate clips)" is selected.


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Brandon McFarland
Re: Red Epic and FCP workflow having transcoded ProRes offlines outside of FCP
on Apr 11, 2012 at 12:48:50 am

That did it. Thanks Jeremy. That is so strange that it sees a timeline in the bin and knows to make individual clips with the setting chosen, but won't make an XML for the trimmed media that it transcodes in that same batch.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Red Epic and FCP workflow having transcoded ProRes offlines outside of FCP
on Apr 11, 2012 at 12:55:38 am

Yes, it needs to be done in a specific order for FCP.

You can always use FCPReconnect, as FCP itself isn't smart enough.

http://www.videotoolshed.com/product/41/fcpreconnect

It's handy if you have already rendered, don't have a Rocket and don't have time to rerender.

Jeremy


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