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Esata to firewire Daisy chain?

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Thomas Morter-Laing
Esata to firewire Daisy chain?
on Nov 27, 2011 at 12:19:33 pm

Hey all,

Sorry its not directly an FCP question, but it IS for an FCP project coming soon so hopefully its ok to post here :D

OK so got a 2TB G-Raid from G-Tech (seems to be very reliable!). Got a 2011 thunderbolt iMac. Would like full express card connectivity, mainly so that I can connect the G-Raid via eSata rather than firewire 800 as it is at the moment. Have seen this: http://www.bpm-media.de/en/Sales/Post-Production/Accessories/Adapter/Sonnet...

Going to buy it (unless someone says don't of course!)

3 questions;
1) I gather its not possible to daisy chain eSata, but would it be possible to connect like this: iMac- G-Raid with eSata, G-Raid to other drives with Fw800... then continue daisy-chaining with fw800 as usual.

2) If this were to be possible, would it slow down the estate connection?

3) Im getting another G-Raid soon, is it possible to get some sort of esata hub so that I can connect both drives to my iMac via eSata with the above Sonnet adapter?

Sorry for all the Q's- the world of eSata seems to be a slightly temperamental one :D
Thanks :D

Tom Morter-Laing
Editor
Certified Apple Product Proffessional, 2010





------------------------------
Thanks if you can help :D
------------------------------


Equipment (not for 'bragging', but in case it's relevant to future posts :D): Canon 7D, with Rode NTG2.
iMac 27" intel i7 3.4GHz, 12GB RAM, ATI HD 6970M [2GB GDDR5], G-Tech G-RAID 2TB (soon to be over eSata!). Elgato Turbo H264HD.





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Tony Brittan
Re: Esata to firewire Daisy chain?
on Nov 27, 2011 at 12:45:04 pm

OWC (Other World Compuing) can actually install an esata card into your iMac for you I believe it gives you two ports. You have to send it to them but they are highly reliable and I've heard great things about how it works. I believe that what you've described would not work at all. BTW...GRAID is an awesome drive. I use em quite a bit. Sorry for any typos...posting from an iPad.

Tony Brittan
Island Shore Productions


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Thomas Morter-Laing
Re: Esata to firewire Daisy chain?
on Nov 27, 2011 at 12:58:26 pm

OWC (Other World Compuing) can actually install an esata card into your iMac for you I believe it gives you two ports. You have to send it to them but they are highly reliable and I've heard great things about how it works.

---Yeah I'm aware of that service, but Im not based in the US and I don't particularly feel like being without my mac for even a few days at the moment :D Its a possibility for the future but I also like the idea of my Mac being intact and having its full warranty :) (Its also covered by Applecare- dunno how that works).

I believe that what you've described would not work at all.

--- Why not? Isn't that one of the essential selling point of the Sonnet Adapter? Or are you saying the firewire chain thing won't work? Please elaborate if possible :)

BTW...GRAID is an awesome drive. I use em quite a bit.

---Awesome, glad to hear, its always nice to have reassurance a product is good (esp when you're buying another one!)

Thanks for the reply :)

Tom Morter-Laing
Editor
Certified Apple Product Proffessional, 2010





------------------------------
Thanks if you can help :D
------------------------------


Equipment (not for 'bragging', but in case it's relevant to future posts :D): Canon 7D, with Rode NTG2.
iMac 27" intel i7 3.4GHz, 12GB RAM, ATI HD 6970M [2GB GDDR5], G-Tech G-RAID 2TB (soon to be over eSata!). Elgato Turbo H264HD.





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Tony Brittan
Re: Esata to firewire Daisy chain?
on Nov 27, 2011 at 1:11:20 pm

Daisy chaining doesn't work. Well, not for video editing anyway. Thunderbolt is supposed to work great for that but the drives aren't pllentyful yet. Apple is selling the Promise RAID on thier site that is Thunderbolt and has 4-6 slots for drives. Looks sweet! But cost over $1k US. sounds like after all of what you're trying to do, the cost could be up around that anyway ;-) Yhey say though that you can daisy chain a bunch of Thuderbolt devices together and it works flawlessly. The device you're looking at would be great for a MBP that has only one thunderbolt and no express card 34 slot...like my new 15". That way I could plug this in and use my Matrox MXO2 via express card or even get an express card 34 adaptor for esata so that I could use my current esata GRAID with my new MBP.

But yea...your can theoretically daisy chain FW800 but it's spotty and in my experience just plain doesn't work. The speed throughput is very low, the connect is wonky, and it's just not a good idea...especially for video which has a lot of demand for system resources and drive speed.

Tony Brittan
Island Shore Productions


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Thomas Morter-Laing
Re: Esata to firewire Daisy chain?
on Nov 27, 2011 at 1:14:19 pm

Ah cool- at the moment all I need is to connect a GRAID to the iMac with esata for much faster speed, so Ill buy one anyway :D Glad that it will at least work :D Other peripherals can come later, and for stuff which requires MATROX devices etc I have access to another Mac Pro (just not at my house). Good! Ill buy one for my GRADI no then, cheers :D

Incidentally, know of any esata port expanders, so I can have more than one esata device attached to this?

Tom Morter-Laing
Editor
Certified Apple Product Proffessional, 2010





------------------------------
Thanks if you can help :D
------------------------------


Equipment (not for 'bragging', but in case it's relevant to future posts :D): Canon 7D, with Rode NTG2.
iMac 27" intel i7 3.4GHz, 12GB RAM, ATI HD 6970M [2GB GDDR5], G-Tech G-RAID 2TB (soon to be over eSata!). Elgato Turbo H264HD.





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Tony Brittan
Re: Esata to firewire Daisy chain?
on Nov 27, 2011 at 1:18:51 pm

Not sure on the expander. I think you'll only be able to run one esata through this device at a time but that could be wrong. BTW, you'll also have to buy an eSATA ExpressCard/34 adaptor to insert into the device you're looking at before you'll be able to plug in anything.


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Bret Williams
Re: Esata to firewire Daisy chain?
on Nov 27, 2011 at 3:27:41 pm

Depending on what Sonnet card you buy you can hook up two esata drives or 4. You can't daisy chain the drives off esata. It's more like scsi in that sense. And you definitely can't hook up a FW800 drive to the back of a graid that is connected esata.

If you hook up the GRaid via FW800 to your iMac, it will be significantly slower than your internal drive which is running internal sata bus I'm sure.

The whole thunderbolt thing is in its infancy and is going to be quite expensive. You'd probably be better off buying the thunderbolt raid system cuz as it stands you're already going to spend $400 US in adapters and card just to plug in the graid via sata.spend that money on the raid, or get another graid for more storage and hook it all up FW800- which is fine for HD ProRes.

This whole thing is why many of us are upset about the possibility that Apple is dropping the MacPro.


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Thomas Morter-Laing
Re: Esata to firewire Daisy chain?
on Nov 27, 2011 at 3:50:08 pm

If you hook up the GRaid via FW800 to your iMac, it will be significantly slower than your internal drive which is running internal sata bus I'm sure
--- That's a pretty obvious point isn't it? Don't mean to be rude or anything. The reason I'd like this is because I obviously don't want to edit from the internal drive, and every bit of speed I can get is helpful- Im looking at working with some uncompressed footage soon, as well as a lot of stuff from a Nanoflash (on EX3). As good as pro res is, I could really do without any bottlenecks when it comes to exporting and rendering out 16bit graphics :)


You'd probably be better off buying the thunderbolt raid system cuz as it stands you're already going to spend $400 US in adapters and card just to plug in the graid via sata.spend that money on the raid, or get another graid for more storage and hook it all up FW800- which is fine for HD ProRes.
--- There's a thunderbolt raid system with a decent amount of storage for that price? Where? Unless you're talking about the Lacie little thingy...which i don't want at the moment because you spend a LOT for very little storage :)
--- You can use 3rd party (cheaper) esata express card adapters (despite what connect want you to think) :D
-- I don't need any more storage! I have over 15 TB at the moment XD

Thanks for the answers though everyone :)

Tom Morter-Laing
Editor
Certified Apple Product Proffessional, 2010





------------------------------
Thanks if you can help :D
------------------------------


Equipment (not for 'bragging', but in case it's relevant to future posts :D): Canon 7D, with Rode NTG2.
iMac 27" intel i7 3.4GHz, 12GB RAM, ATI HD 6970M [2GB GDDR5], G-Tech G-RAID 2TB (soon to be over eSata!). Elgato Turbo H264HD.





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Tony Brittan
Re: Esata to firewire Daisy chain?
on Nov 27, 2011 at 4:00:01 pm

Look at the promise thunderbolt raids on apples site


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Thomas Morter-Laing
Re: Esata to firewire Daisy chain?
on Nov 27, 2011 at 4:42:15 pm

Cool, I just looked.... um my point still seems to stand quite a bit :S Unless Ive missed something, the cheapest thunderbolt drive of any kind is still the LaCie 1TB Little Big Disk... which is £299 (UK Sterling, not sure about US)... so my solution would still be cheaper AND allow 2 eSata connected drives, which despite not being as fast as Thunderbolt would provide me with what Im looking for right now. As well as the other express card connectivity it gives me.... :)

Tom Morter-Laing
Editor
Certified Apple Product Proffessional, 2010





------------------------------
Thanks if you can help :D
------------------------------


Equipment (not for 'bragging', but in case it's relevant to future posts :D): Canon 7D, with Rode NTG2.
iMac 27" intel i7 3.4GHz, 12GB RAM, ATI HD 6970M [2GB GDDR5], G-Tech G-RAID 2TB (soon to be over eSata!). Elgato Turbo H264HD.





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John Pale
Re: Esata to firewire Daisy chain?
on Nov 27, 2011 at 5:55:24 pm

"This whole thing is why many of us are upset about the possibility that Apple is dropping the MacPro."

Sorry to go off topic...

Just speculation, but if Apple does this, I would not be surprised to see them license Mac OSX to select high end PC workstations. No technical reason why this can't be done, now that Apple is using Intel.

It allows Apple to abandon creating hardware that is not profitable enough for them, without abandoning a market where their OS has a large presence. A win/win as far as they are concerned. As long as they keep it officially limited to select high end workstations (firmware or some other restriction), it won't diminish the brand. Hackers will get around it, but they are doing that anyway, as the thriving Hackintosh community already exists.

Would never happen if Steve were still around, but Cook has already stated he is open to doing things differently.


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Shawn Bann
Re: Esata to firewire Daisy chain?
on Nov 28, 2011 at 6:35:44 pm

I'm running the eSata expander (2) & Sonnet (4) which give 6 ports total.

Unfortunately, this expander i got is NOT hot swappable:
http://eshop.macsales.com/item/NewerTech/MPQXES2/


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Tony Brittan
Re: Esata to firewire Daisy chain?
on Nov 27, 2011 at 12:53:43 pm

Heck...I probably should've checked your link before I posted! That looks really cool! Might have to pick one up myself. You still can't daisy chain like that what you're talking about video and RAIDs and all that stuff. Just asking for trouble....if you can even get it to work. If it had all Thunderbolt disks you could, supposedly since I haven't tried it, daisy chain till your hearts content. But not with FireWire.

This is why the Mac Pro is currently the best choice for anything large or beyond the imac's ability. With the Mac Pro, you have 4 bays for drives and they're super easy to swap out. I have 4 2tb drives in mine. Then you have 4 PCIe slots to expand with esata cards or whatever. One esata card can have 4 inputs on it. You get where I'm going.

Tony Brittan
Island Shore Productions


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Rafael Amador
Re: Esata to firewire Daisy chain?
on Nov 27, 2011 at 4:28:33 pm

Yeap, daisy change THunderbolt is possible same that FW, what is not possible is this:

[Thomas Morter-Laing] "3 questions;
1) I gather its not possible to daisy chain eSata, but would it be possible to connect like this: iMac- G-Raid with eSata, G-Raid to other drives with Fw800... then continue daisy-chaining with fw800 as usual. "

You can not connect a HD trough an interface (eSATA, TB, FW,, USB) and get the same stream trough a different interface. If you connect a HD through eSATA you can connect nothing else.
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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Thomas Morter-Laing
Re: Esata to firewire Daisy chain?
on Nov 27, 2011 at 4:44:20 pm

Ah sorry Tony- I just saw your second response, ignore my above arguments XD

Cheers Rafael :) OK so Im still getting an adapter :D

Tom Morter-Laing
Editor
Certified Apple Product Proffessional, 2010





------------------------------
Thanks if you can help :D
------------------------------


Equipment (not for 'bragging', but in case it's relevant to future posts :D): Canon 7D, with Rode NTG2.
iMac 27" intel i7 3.4GHz, 12GB RAM, ATI HD 6970M [2GB GDDR5], G-Tech G-RAID 2TB (soon to be over eSata!). Elgato Turbo H264HD.





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Bret Williams
Re: Esata to firewire Daisy chain?
on Nov 27, 2011 at 6:38:19 pm

Hope it all works for you. Just an FYI, you do know that to get the Raid capability out of the GRaid, you'll have to use the sonnet tempo E4P for example vs. the Sonnet tempo E2P. You'll get 200 mb/sec from the E4P vs. 120 on the E2P. ($300 vs. $50). I use the E2P in my MacPro to drive to eSatas and I've been perfectly happy with my decision. If I need more real time I lower the unlimited rt quality and/or frame rate. I drive a G-Raid and a single drive eSata I put together with a chassis and a bare seagate. Both the G-Raid and the Seagate perform exactly the same . Around 120mb. With a FW800 you can get around 80 mb/sec. I'm not sure that it's worth all the effort of adapters and such to get the boost from 80 to 120 mb/sec if you were to get a basic esata card like the e2p. It was worth $50 bucks for me easily. You say you have 15TB. How much of that can you hook up to the eSata? You can't daisy chain. So aren't you looking at only hooking up 2 drives?


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Jeff Meyer
Re: Esata to firewire Daisy chain?
on Nov 28, 2011 at 5:10:36 am

Just ran AJA System Test (1080, 10bit, 2gb) on my 2TB 4th gen G-RAID. Here are the results. I included the G-Speed ES drives to establish that drive capacity doesn't have a substantial difference on speed.

G-RAID FW800 scores:
write 64.7 MB/s
read 57.1 MB/s

G-RAID eSATA scores: (using controller bundled with G-Speed ES series)
write 169.2 MB/s
read 168.3 MB/s

G-Speed ES 12tb RAID-5 scores:
write 158.0 MB/s
read 177.3 MB/s

G-Speed ES 8th RAID-5 scores:
write 158.3 MB/s
read 176.1 MB/s

220Mb/s nanoflash is about 28MB/s. (Megabits versus MegaBytes) You should be able to get two streams of it (56MB/s) over FW800, but for more than two streams look into eSATA or the Promise RAID. They're saying the 4 drive enclosure gets over 500MB/s - nearly triple your G-RAID over eSATA, and nearing 10x the G-RAID over firewire. Hope this is helpful.


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Thomas Morter-Laing
Re: Esata to firewire Daisy chain?
on Nov 28, 2011 at 2:54:11 pm

What is the "controller bundled with G-Speed ES series"?
So that supports the idea that if Im doing a reasonably hefty project on this drive, I should get one of these adapters for use with eSata then :)

Also, Ive asked this elsewhere on the Cow, but does anyone have any idea whats going on here?:

http://www.scidailynews.com/sonnet-echo-expresscard34-thunderbolt-adapter.h...

That one is what I can buy in the UK but it seems to look very different to the one on the Sonnet website :S Any ideas? :D

Tom Morter-Laing
Editor
Certified Apple Product Proffessional, 2010





------------------------------
Thanks if you can help :D
------------------------------


Equipment (not for 'bragging', but in case it's relevant to future posts :D): Canon 7D, with Rode NTG2.
iMac 27" intel i7 3.4GHz, 12GB RAM, ATI HD 6970M [2GB GDDR5], G-Tech G-RAID 2TB (soon to be over eSata!). Elgato Turbo H264HD.





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Jeff Meyer
Re: Esata to firewire Daisy chain?
on Nov 29, 2011 at 11:17:32 pm

It's the controller that G-Tech bundles with a G-Speed ES. It has a RAID engine on it, but the G-RAID will always rely on its own internal RAID controller.


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