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changing timeline frame-rate mid-project

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Brendan Woollard
changing timeline frame-rate mid-project
on Oct 21, 2011 at 7:48:42 pm

Hiya.
I've been brought on to work on a feature Doc after the assembly has already been cut at 23.976 fps, using (mostly) 23.976 fps footage. Unfortunately, a mistake was made and the last 3-day shoot was done mostly at 29.97 fps. For this reason - and for the reason that it will also be easier to use archival/stock footage that originates at 29.97 - I would like to start working at 29.97 instead. I can deliver in either frame-rate. (HD proresHQ QT will be what I output.)

My question is: how best and quickest to make the switch from an FCP timeline that is running at 23.976 to 29.97? The timeline contains footage from both frame-rates. Are there any other tech issues that I should be aware of while using 23.976 fps footage in a 29.97 fps timeline?

Thank!


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Shane Ross
Re: changing timeline frame-rate mid-project
on Oct 21, 2011 at 8:20:33 pm

Well...this won't be easy. It will be a huge undertaking, to tell you the truth.

First off...you cannot change the frame rate of existing sequences. What you will have to do is make a sequence with the settings you want, then cut and paste the current cut into that sequence. BUT..this will cause gaps to appear between most of the clips. 1 frame gaps...ALL over the timeline. So you will have to fix that.

Second...and really the biggest issue...you really cannot mix frame rates in FCP. Yeah, you CAN...but not if you want it to look good. FCP doesn't remove pulldown from 29.97 footage to make it 23.98 properly, nor add it properly to 23.98 to make it 29.97. It duplicates frames, or removes frames, in a way that doesn't look good. So what you'll have to do is use Compressor to convert ALL the footage from one frame rate to another. And then RE-EDIT that footage into the timeline...redoing all the previous work.

Or...convert all the NEW footage to 23.98...and all the stock footage to 23.98...and continue to work 23.98. That is the best option, and what I'd do.

Making the decision to change frame rates halfway through the post process was a very poor decision. No, I'll call it for what it is...it was a STUPID decision. You choose the frame rate you are going to work in BEFORE you begin SHOOTING! And then stick with it....or get ready to add a week or more to post to convert the footage to the other frame rate.

Stick with 23.98...convert all the new footage and stock footage to 23.98 using Compressor. That is what I'd do.

Shane

GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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David Roth Weiss
Re: changing timeline frame-rate mid-project
on Oct 21, 2011 at 8:26:24 pm

Listen to Shane...

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new Creative Cow Podcast: Bringing "The Whale" to the Big Screen:
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/Podcast-Series-2-MikeParfit...

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Brendan Woollard
Re: changing timeline frame-rate mid-project
on Oct 24, 2011 at 7:08:40 pm

Thanks for the advice guys.
So what I'm hearing is that the 29.97 footage converted to 23.976 via Compressor will be superior or equal in quality to 23.976 converted to 29.97 by adding pulldown? Or at least that whatever difference in quality there is, in your opinion, is overcome in importance but other issues.

Based on your advice, I'm now thinking that the best idea would be to continue working at 23.976 until the end, at which point I'll get my assistant to convert and eye-match the 29.97 material... which means I get to edit in "stutter-vision" for the next few weeks! ...it's always a shame when we have to waste time on this kind of stuff isn't it!


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Paul Allman
Re: changing timeline frame-rate mid-project
on Oct 21, 2011 at 9:17:06 pm

I agree with all of this, except I might use Cinema Tools to change the frame rate, conforming it to the 23.98. It does this very quickly. But I don't get the sense that people use CT very often.

Paul Allman


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Shane Ross
Re: changing timeline frame-rate mid-project
on Oct 21, 2011 at 10:05:18 pm

[Paul Allman] "except I might use Cinema Tools to change the frame rate, conforming it to the 23.98. It does this very quickly. "

NO no no no no no no NO! This will speed up or slow down the footage. If you shot 29.97, and conform to 23.98...the footage will play slightly slower. SAME AMOUNT OF FRAMES, only different rate. If you go 23.98 to 29.97...the footage will be sped up.

This is NOT the way to do it. You use CONFORM to make 60fps into smooth slow motion, not to convert the frame rate of footage that you need to play in realtime...1 second remaining 1 second.

You need to use Compressor. Like I lay out in the second half of this article:

http://library.creativecow.net/articles/ross_shane/aja_kona3.php

Shane

GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Rafael Amador
Re: changing timeline frame-rate mid-project
on Oct 23, 2011 at 4:12:25 pm

[Shane Ross] "[Paul Allman] "except I might use Cinema Tools to change the frame rate, conforming it to the 23.98. It does this very quickly. "

NO no no no no no no NO!"

Absolutely.
This has nothing to do with CinemaTools.
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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Spyros Skandalos
Re: changing timeline frame-rate mid-project
on Dec 18, 2012 at 1:29:13 am

I recorded in 1080 29.97i

Edited in 29.97 fps timelines and pasted all in a 25fps timeline without having playback problems.

How is that possible?

I really want to export in 25fps to have more smooth look.
Am I going to face any problems after export?

I work in this short movie (20') and i'm freshmeat

thanks in advance

Spyros
MacBook Pro intel core i7
4GB Ram 1333mhz DDR3
Macosx 10.6.8


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Shaun Batt
Re: changing timeline frame-rate mid-project
on Aug 10, 2015 at 12:16:12 pm

Hi Shane, I realise this is an old post of yours. However, could you help please. Your comment..."This is NOT the way to do it. You use CONFORM to make 60fps into smooth slow motion, not to convert the frame rate of footage that you need to play in realtime...1 second remaining 1 second."

Well your statement... '1 sec remaining 1 sec', interests me. I am using Compressor and for some reason when I change the frame rate and leave duration to 100% the length of the clips change - only by 1 frame or a few milliseconds, but there is still a change - the test footage is:

Clip 1: 59.94fps at 3s 854ms long - 231 frames
Clip 2: 29.97fps at 3s 854ms long - 116 frames

In Compressor I Change the fps to 25 and duration to 100%, the result is:

Clip 1: 25fps at 3s 840ms long - 96 frames
Clip 2: 25fps at 3s 880ms long - 97 frames

I realise it is only one frame and the milliseconds have changed (however, should I really bother about it? Is it a problem - I'm considering what might happen with a longer Clip, etc.).

Any feedback would be gratefully received,

Shaun


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