FORUMS: list search recent posts

How to tell if footage is 10-bit or 12-bit?

COW Forums : Apple Final Cut Pro Legacy

<< PREVIOUS   •   FAQ   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
Glenn Camhi
How to tell if footage is 10-bit or 12-bit?
on Oct 4, 2011 at 8:50:12 am

This must be obvious and I'm missing it. How can you tell if a clip or QuickTime movie is 10-bit or 12-bit? ProRes 4444 can be either, as far as I understand.

This info doesn't show up in properties within Final Cut Pro, Finder, or QuickTime Pro.

Thanks!


Return to posts index


Jerry Hofmann
Re: How to tell if footage is 10-bit or 12-bit?
on Oct 4, 2011 at 12:10:20 pm

AFAIK, ProRes 4444 is always 12 bit, but you'd only really get 12 bits if your source is 12 bit such as graphics, or cameras which are 12 bit recordings. Otherwise, it's like 422 ProRes HQ. If you're source is 8 bit (most all cameras under 30k are 8 bit recordings) The resulting ProRes file is 10 bit from say a transcode using Compressor or other compression software, but it has no more color information than the 8 bit recording had.

Jerry

Apple Certified Trainer, Producer, Writer, Director Editor, Gun for Hire and other things. I ski. My Blog: http://blogs.creativecow.net/Jerry-Hofmann

Current DVD:
http://store.creativecow.net/p/81/jerry_hofmanns_final_cut_system_setup

8-Core 3.0 Intel Mac Pro, Dual 2 gig G5, AJA Kona SD, AJA Kona 2, Huge Systems Array UL3D, AJA Io HD, 17" MBP, Matrox MXO2 with MAX - Cinema Displays I have a 22" that I paid 4k for still working. G4 with Kona SD card, and SCSI card.


Return to posts index

Glenn Camhi
Re: How to tell if footage is 10-bit or 12-bit?
on Oct 4, 2011 at 12:41:23 pm

Ah, okay, thank you Jerry. Thought I'd read some time back that PR4444 can be 10-bit, and Apple's description of the codec says it can be "up to 12-bit," which I thought was an odd wording if it's always 12-bit. But perhaps they meant what you meant. It does make more sense to me if it's always 12-bit.

It gets more confusing (to me, anyway), since PR4444 is 12-bit RGB, while the other PR codecs are 10-bit YUV, right?

Anyway, our source footage is indeed 12 bit (captured with an ARRI Alexa). I wasn't sure if the bit depth ever changed, either via Color round-tripping, or exporting from FCP to QuickTime. The finishing facility is asking if the QT file we're delivering is 10-bit or 12-bit, and I just wasn't positive.


Return to posts index



Jerry Hofmann
Re: How to tell if footage is 10-bit or 12-bit?
on Oct 4, 2011 at 1:46:12 pm

Yeah, the actual description from the 2009 white paper:

"Apple ProRes 4444: The new Apple ProRes 4444 codec preserves motion image sequences originating in either 4:4:4 RGB or 4:4:4 Y’CBCR color spaces. At its remarkably low data rate as compared to uncompressed 4:4:4 HD, Apple ProRes 4444 supports 12-bit pixel depth with an optional, mathematically lossless alpha channel for true 4:4:4:4 support. Apple ProRes 4444 preserves visual quality at the same high level as does Apple ProRes 422 (HQ), but for 4:4:4 image sources, which can carry the highest possible color detail."

Can't think of a single codec setting which can "either" be one bit rate or another actually. It's one thing or the other.

How did you create the QT movies? During record or?

Jerry

Apple Certified Trainer, Producer, Writer, Director Editor, Gun for Hire and other things. I ski. My Blog: http://blogs.creativecow.net/Jerry-Hofmann

Current DVD:
http://store.creativecow.net/p/81/jerry_hofmanns_final_cut_system_setup

8-Core 3.0 Intel Mac Pro, Dual 2 gig G5, AJA Kona SD, AJA Kona 2, Huge Systems Array UL3D, AJA Io HD, 17" MBP, Matrox MXO2 with MAX - Cinema Displays I have a 22" that I paid 4k for still working. G4 with Kona SD card, and SCSI card.


Return to posts index

Glenn Camhi
Re: How to tell if footage is 10-bit or 12-bit?
on Oct 4, 2011 at 2:22:31 pm

Source files were created at record. Final output being done via Export / QuickTime Movie... using sequence settings.

Thanks again for correcting my misunderstanding.

Funny, I tried searching for where I ever saw the "up to 12-bit" description, turns out it's the same paragraph quoted on a bunch of non-Apple sites, including the ever-reliable (heh) Wikipedia. Though the Apple Color manual does include this even more curious description, a typo I assume: "Apple ProRes 4444: The highest-bandwidth version of Apple ProRes, suitable for high definition or digital cinema mastering. Lightly compressed, with a variable bit rate (VBR) depending on frame size and frame rate. (An example is 330 mbps at 1920x1080 60i or 1280x720 60p.) Encodes video at up to 10 bits per channel with 4:4:4 chroma subsampling."


Return to posts index

Rafael Amador
Re: How to tell if footage is 10-bit or 12-bit?
on Oct 4, 2011 at 9:48:25 pm

[Glenn Camhi] "It gets more confusing (to me, anyway), since PR4444 is 12-bit RGB, while the other PR codecs are 10-bit YUV, right? "
Video codecs are YUV.
Prores444 supports RGB to be used for graphics and 444RGB acquisition.

[Glenn Camhi] "But perhaps they meant what you meant. It does make more sense to me if it's always 12-bit."
Why?
How will you get 12b from FC which can only render 10b?

Apple clearly states that Prores444 SUPPORTS 12b.
This doesn't means that is 12b.

Again Prores444 CAN be RGB or YUV, 10b or 12.
You get RGB from an RGB processing (AE, Color,..) and YUV from something like FC.
No idea which kind of Prores444 (RGB or YUV) would you get from Compressor: Possibly would depend on the source.

How to get a 12b Prores444?
No idea.
Sure you would need processing in 12b-Up (AE, MOTION,..), but no way to know if you are getting 10 or 12b.

The problem of Prores444 is that is half-debeloped.
At least, the compressor panel is not complete.
Should have clear the different options: YUV or RGB, and 10 or 12b.
You see? QT Pro can not convert a Prores444/RGB to a Prores444/YUV.
No option to select the Color Space on exporting.
Another missing option is Full Range/Video Range. All pro RGB 10b codecs have it, except Prores444.
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


Return to posts index


Jerry Hofmann
Re: How to tell if footage is 10-bit or 12-bit?
on Oct 4, 2011 at 11:07:17 pm

I've looked into this further, and the extra 2 bits in the bit depth is the alpha channel, and that's optional in the compression... so it would be 10 only if there is no alpha channel.

Jerry

Apple Certified Trainer, Producer, Writer, Director Editor, Gun for Hire and other things. I ski. My Blog: http://blogs.creativecow.net/Jerry-Hofmann

Current DVD:
http://store.creativecow.net/p/81/jerry_hofmanns_final_cut_system_setup

8-Core 3.0 Intel Mac Pro, Dual 2 gig G5, AJA Kona SD, AJA Kona 2, Huge Systems Array UL3D, AJA Io HD, 17" MBP, Matrox MXO2 with MAX - Cinema Displays I have a 22" that I paid 4k for still working. G4 with Kona SD card, and SCSI card.


Return to posts index

Rafael Amador
Re: How to tell if footage is 10-bit or 12-bit?
on Oct 5, 2011 at 3:15:58 am

So with Alpha could be 10-10-10-12 and without: 10-10-10.
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


Return to posts index

eddie mor
Re: How to tell if footage is 10-bit or 12-bit?
on May 28, 2012 at 9:53:39 am

Hello from Spain,

as far as I Know, Apple pro res 12 bit 4444 is not equal to 10 bit 444 ( without the alpha channel ) , with the alpha channel is 16 bit 4444
So, the problem is that FCP cannot edit or export in 12 BIT, Only 10 or 8, so you loose colour depth from your source, to conforme you need another machine using edl or xml,

I would hope someone tell me I´m wrong ( really )

http://support.apple.com/kb/HT5151


Return to posts index


Rafael Amador
Re: How to tell if footage is 10-bit or 12-bit?
on May 29, 2012 at 2:56:23 am

[eddie mor] "as far as I Know, Apple pro res 12 bit 4444 is not equal to 10 bit 444 ( without the alpha channel ) , with the alpha channel is 16 bit 4444"
This is very wrong.
Prores 444 SUPPORT 10/12 bits. That means that can be 10/12 bits PER CHANNEL: That means that The Luma (Y), and Color Difference or Color componet (Cb, Cr, R, G, B) and Alpha channel are sampled at 10 or 12 bits depth. Tthe Alpha channel, up to Apple,can support even 16b.



[eddie mor] "So, the problem is that FCP cannot edit or export in 12 BIT, Only 10 or 8, so you loose colour depth from your source, to conforme you need another machine using edl or xml, "
Right.
In fact FC renders only 8b in RGB.
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


Return to posts index

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
© 2018 CreativeCOW.net All Rights Reserved
[TOP]