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Random Frame Rates on Quicktimes

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Bill Olafsen
Random Frame Rates on Quicktimes
on Sep 21, 2011 at 6:49:04 pm

Capturing from tape or Test Signal HD/SDI signal at 720p 59.94 in FCP version 7.0.3. The files appear to be correct in FCP @59.94 however when you go to the Capture Scratch and open the file in QT-Pro and check data in Movie Inspector the frame rates vary i.e. 59.63, 59.72, 59.67 etc. this apparently is not a problem in Final Cut for editing purposes however it does create problems when trying to use these files for other encoders when trying to create WMV files as an example. Has anyone seen this before? How can it be fixed or can it? If you open the file in QT-PRO and export from QT-PRO using current settings the result is a file that is correct @ 59.94

BILL


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Dave LaRonde
Re: Random Frame Rates on Quicktimes
on Sep 21, 2011 at 7:13:51 pm

[Bill Olafsen] "in QT-Pro and check data in Movie Inspector the frame rates vary i.e. 59.63, 59.72, 59.67 etc. "

Good news: this is NOT a concern. The QT player certainly isn't the world's most accurate source of information on frame rates. It never has been.

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Shane Ross
Re: Random Frame Rates on Quicktimes
on Sep 21, 2011 at 7:15:46 pm

There's nothing to fix. That's just the rate the QT plays it back as. But, it will also report odd numbers. QT info is never to be trusted when it comes to frame rates.

Shane

GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Matt Campbell
Re: Random Frame Rates on Quicktimes
on Sep 21, 2011 at 7:37:09 pm

Shane, are there any good apps out there that give you info and metadata on files. something that gives you frame rate, size, progressive vs. interlaced, codec, audio format, yada yada yada.

OS 10.6.7, Mac Pro 2 x 3 ghz quad-core intel xenon, 4 gb ram and AJA IoHD


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Shane Ross
Re: Random Frame Rates on Quicktimes
on Sep 21, 2011 at 7:50:38 pm

Dunno. I use FCP for that. Since I captured with or imported into FCP.

And when I get files from clients...I import and then look there at the data.

CatDV maybe? Cataloging software.

Shane

GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Dave LaRonde
Re: Random Frame Rates on Quicktimes
on Sep 21, 2011 at 7:54:41 pm

[Matt Campbell] "...are there any good apps out there that give you info and metadata on files. something that gives you frame rate, size, progressive vs. interlaced, codec, audio format, yada yada yada."

Well, there's FCP, but you knew that. I don't know if any application can display all those pieces of information. I'm thinking specifically of progressive/interlaced.

For example, almost all 1080p 29.97 footage says it's progressive, but it's actually progressive segmented frame. I understand there are tiny differences between psf and interlaced footage, but it still behaves like interlaced footage. So: is it interlaced, or is it progressive? Tough call.

But for everything else on that list, FCP or After Effects can provide it.

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Matt Campbell
Re: Random Frame Rates on Quicktimes
on Sep 21, 2011 at 8:14:50 pm

Thanks. Wasn't sure if things like Media Info were any good. I do use FCP for all that, but sometimes, especially using ProRes, the metadata is wrong. More specifically the progressive vs. interlaced game.

For example, almost all 1080p 29.97 footage says it's progressive, but it's actually progressive segmented frame. I understand there are tiny differences between psf and interlaced footage, but it still behaves like interlaced footage. So: is it interlaced, or is it progressive? Tough call.

I hear that. thx. Is there a way to tell by stepping through if its 29.97psf or 29.97i (23.98 with 3:2 pulldown) Or can that be progressive as well. All in terms of broadcast of course.

My issue is that when pulling 1080 broadcast spots from our library (only the 29.97 ones), we want to use progressive stuff for web. I can't tell if its 29.97 interlaced or PSF. So do I remove the pulldown and conform to 23.98 with AE or Cinema Tools or just try and deinterlace with Compressor? Or simply encode as 29.97 and pray it looks good?

OS 10.6.7, Mac Pro 2 x 3 ghz quad-core intel xenon, 4 gb ram and AJA IoHD


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Matt Campbell
Re: Random Frame Rates on Quicktimes
on Sep 21, 2011 at 8:18:35 pm

Sorry, another point to that is that ProRes 422 files in 1080 29.97, FCP interprets them as field dom, None. Do I trust it, or is it wrong and its interlaced material.

Just read things in the past the ProRes doesn't always carry the correct metadata like this.

OS 10.6.7, Mac Pro 2 x 3 ghz quad-core intel xenon, 4 gb ram and AJA IoHD


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Dave LaRonde
Re: Random Frame Rates on Quicktimes
on Sep 21, 2011 at 8:30:14 pm

[Matt Campbell] "Is there a way to tell by stepping through if its 29.97psf or 29.97i"

I can tell by looking at my video monitor: in a section of even fairly quick action, I step through frame by frame, and see jitter between fields if it's interlaced. I don't if it's progressive.




[Matt Campbell] "(23.98 with 3:2 pulldown) Or can that be progressive as well."

It CAN'T be progressive if it's 29.97. As long as the pulldown was added AFTER editing, you can remove it using Compressor.

If it was shot 23.98 and edited at 29.97, you're pretty much hosed: the pulldown pattern is almost surely messed up, making automatic pulldown removal an impossibility. You'd have to remove pulldown on each shot, and then the clips probably wouldn't be long enough to cover the duration of the video. Ugh.


[Matt Campbell] "Or simply encode as 29.97 and pray it looks good?"

Compressor is a good way to create progressive from interlaced. There are better ways, such as taking the footage to a post house for hardware conversion, but be prepared to open that ol' wallet and pull out a big wad of cash.

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Matt Campbell
Re: Random Frame Rates on Quicktimes
on Sep 21, 2011 at 8:53:14 pm

I can tell by looking at my video monitor: in a section of even fairly quick action, I step through frame by frame, and see jitter between fields if it's interlaced. I don't if it's progressive.

Good to know. I'll keep that in mind.


It CAN'T be progressive if it's 29.97. As long as the pulldown was added AFTER editing, you can remove it using Compressor.

And, I thought so. Just wasn't sure. Had a co-worker try and tell me otherwise. But know I showed them. haha

Compressor is a good way to create progressive from interlaced. There are better ways, such as taking the footage to a post house for hardware conversion, but be prepared to open that ol' wallet and pull out a big wad of cash.

Cool. We also have a Content Agent, hardware encoder at my new place so I'll try that as well. But all-in-all, Compressor has been yielding pretty good results.

you da man Dave. Thx

OS 10.6.7, Mac Pro 2 x 3 ghz quad-core intel xenon, 4 gb ram and AJA IoHD


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Bill Olafsen
Re: Random Frame Rates on Quicktimes
on Sep 21, 2011 at 9:13:17 pm

Thanks for the responses, however I'm not sure that I can agree that the info provided by "Movie Inspector" in QT-PRO is incorrect or of no importance. As stated in previous post "If you open the file in QT-PRO and export from QT-PRO using current settings the result is a file that is correct @ 59.94" the file resulting from this process run through the same encoding process using the same encoder "Rhozet Carbon" works just fine. This tells me that perhaps there is some metadata embedded in the file from Final Cut Pro that presents itself differently to editing applications than it does other applications such as Rhozet Carbon. Any thoughts?

BILL


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Dave LaRonde
Re: Random Frame Rates on Quicktimes
on Sep 21, 2011 at 9:25:59 pm

I can't say whether you're correct or not because I've never had occasion to encode footage using that workflow.
However, I CAN say that footage erroneously reported as 29.92 or 59.98 in QT has always worked flawlessly in FCP, Adobe Premiere, after Effects and Motion. I can also say that 59.94 footage imported following conversion in Rhozet has indeed been treated as 59.94 in FCP and AE, and works equally well.

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Chris Borjis
Re: Random Frame Rates on Quicktimes
on Sep 21, 2011 at 9:26:13 pm

[Bill Olafsen] "however it does create problems when trying to use these files for other encoders when trying to create WMV files as an example"


I don't see how.

I know what your talking about, but it's never caused issues when encoding to windows media format for me.



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Bill Olafsen
Re: Random Frame Rates on Quicktimes
on Sep 21, 2011 at 9:30:59 pm

Are you using a Third Party encoder other than Compressor or Flip-For-Mac? Say not an Apple product? If so what is it?

BILL


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Rafael Amador
Re: Random Frame Rates on Quicktimes
on Sep 21, 2011 at 10:35:32 pm

[Bill Olafsen] "this apparently is not a problem in Final Cut for editing purposes however it does create problems when trying to use these files for other encoders when trying to create WMV files as an example."
But you don't need any TC (that will get lost) when you transcode to WMV, don't you?
Open the Clip Properties in QT, and uncheck theTC track before converting.
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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Chris Borjis
Re: Random Frame Rates on Quicktimes
on Sep 23, 2011 at 5:45:58 pm

I'm using the pro version of flip4mac.

I do set the framerate though to 29.97 in the settings.



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