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Ridiculous FCP Render Times - TWIXTOR

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Josh Celli
Ridiculous FCP Render Times - TWIXTOR
on Aug 4, 2011 at 1:43:51 am

Hi there,

I am back once again to solve a seemingly unnecessary issue. I am currently attempting to edit a 4 cam mix for a band, and two of the cams they shot with shoot at 30fps. I need to convert them down to 29.97 fps.

I downloaded the demo of Twixtor, and applied the plug in to a 6 minute clip after I had conformed it to 29.97fps in Cinema Tools, in order to acclimate it for the rest of the 29.97 footage. I then changed the speed via the Twixtor plugin to 100.100100, as I have read to do.

The render for this is clocked at 12 hours. I have to apply this to two more hour long clips, and do not have the rest of the WEEK to wait BEFORE I START EDITING.

I am running out of time, and am near my breaking point. I inherited this footage and am unable to begin because of ridiculous render times. I was going to use compressor but the render time was clocked at well over a month.

Footage is Apple ProRes 422 (HQ).

Thank you.


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Jeff Meyer
Re: Ridiculous FCP Render Times - TWIXTOR
on Aug 4, 2011 at 4:49:40 am

You didn't shoot at the same frame rate to begin with - something that is essential for a multi-cam workflow to be successful. You can't design a car that needs four wheels, put three on it, and assume it will work. There's a proper way to do things. Maybe Twixtor will do it, but I suspect you will have artifacts in your footage.

My advice on this one is to multicam the frame rate with the best coverage, then add (manually synced) inserts from the other cameras as needed. Given your time crunch you're running short on options.


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Josh Celli
Re: Ridiculous FCP Render Times - TWIXTOR
on Aug 4, 2011 at 5:05:58 am

I didn't shoot it. They did. And Dave Laronde told me that Twixtor was the way to go and that it would not kill quality... I am still confused...


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John Pale
Re: Ridiculous FCP Render Times - TWIXTOR
on Aug 4, 2011 at 4:56:14 am

Frankly I would just try to edit with the footage as is, after conforming in CT, without Twixtor. The difference between 29.97 and 30 is very small. You may have to keep a close eye on sync and adust shots as needed, as they are minutely slower than the true 29.97 camera. Depending on how it's shot and edited, it may not be noticeable at all.

Compressor, Twixtor, and any software solution will take a very long time to render, as you have seen, and you may still have sync issues and jittery motion.


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Josh Celli
Re: Ridiculous FCP Render Times - TWIXTOR
on Aug 4, 2011 at 5:07:58 am

If I had more time would Twixtor be better? Just curious on quality options for the future.


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John Pale
Re: Ridiculous FCP Render Times - TWIXTOR
on Aug 4, 2011 at 6:06:59 am

In the future don't mix frame rates. If you do, you will have problems. Cinema Tools conform has no loss in quality, but it is adjusting the speed of the footage slightly. The quality will not be improved by Twixtor...it may only help keep things in sync. Because of the way it interpolates, it might not even do that perfectly.

If you forgoe Twixtor, sync will be easier to manage if you make multi clips for each song. The offset between cameras will grow on longer multi clips.

There isn't any quick fix to this. Shooting at different frame rates is a major mistake,


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Josh Celli
Re: Ridiculous FCP Render Times - TWIXTOR
on Aug 4, 2011 at 6:09:12 am

Thanks. Like I said, I inherited this mess, and am still baffled as to why the Flip Ultra HD cams shoot at that frame rate anyhow.

I'll keep this thread posted.


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Bob Tompkins
Re: Ridiculous FCP Render Times - TWIXTOR
on Aug 4, 2011 at 11:58:32 am

I am baffled why anyone would shoot something they really found valuable on a FilpCam.



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Josh Celli
Re: idiculous FCP Render Times - TWIXTOR
on Aug 5, 2011 at 2:04:38 am

Bob - this was all the band had. Contrary to the belief of most on this forum, not everybody has excessive amounts of money to spend on equipment that isn't even pertinent to their job. I am sixteen, and therefore don't own obscenely expensive equipment, therefore forums treat me like I am comparatively worthless merely because of my financial situation. I'd urge you to meander over to Jerry Hoffman's blog concerning technology vs. art. It's quite thought-provoking and is a testament to the importance of content rather than technological perfection.


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David Roth Weiss
Re: idiculous FCP Render Times - TWIXTOR
on Aug 5, 2011 at 2:32:02 am

[Josh Celli] " I am sixteen, and therefore don't own obscenely expensive equipment, therefore forums treat me like I am comparatively worthless merely because of my financial situation."

You've been hanging on the wrong forums Josh.

Congrats on being sixteen, and congrats on learning this stuff at your age. It will serve you well.

Meanwhile, the fellas here had no idea you're just a baby, and they most likely assumed you were a semi-pro who needed a good whoopin for shooting with different frame rates. We do see it all the time here.

Just do keep in mind, it's not a cost saving by any stretch to shoot with mismatched cameras. Always shoot with the same frame rate and the same frame size if you want to save money.

Learn the lesson now, and don't use the we didn't have $$$ in the budget excuse, because it always costs more to fix it in post. For the record, post is typically 60 to 65% of the cost of total production, compared to 30 to 35% for production. So, the old fix it in post thing typically costs 1/3 more right from the get-go.


David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new tutorial: Prepare for a seamless transition to FCP X and OS X Lion
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/FCP-10-MAC-Lion/1

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Bob Tompkins
Re: idiculous FCP Render Times - TWIXTOR
on Aug 5, 2011 at 1:08:51 pm

Josh you are very smart for a 16 year old. Keep up the good work. Just trying to help you with some of the things we have learned over 30 years. Unfortunately the band is not going to understand why you can't complete their project so it becomes your problem. When you get paying customers it will be your job to control as much of the process as possible. I agree with cutting the program as a two camera concert and adding in as much "b-roll" from the two Flip cameras as possible. The more time you have the more you can do.



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Dave LaRonde
Re: Ridiculous FCP Render Times - TWIXTOR
on Aug 4, 2011 at 3:01:49 pm

[Josh Celli] "If I had more time would Twixtor be better? Just curious on quality options for the future."

For the future, you've already experienced the painful truth: shoot everything at the same frame rate. I suspect it's a lesson you won't forget.

Remember what I wrote about Twixtor creating new frames? There's just a miniscule difference between the two frame rates. Twixtor's doing a LOT of thinking.

I agree with the other posters: if you're under a severe time crunch, forget about multicam on the 30fps stuff and bite the bullet: just cut the 30 fps stuff conformed to 29.97 into the timeline only where absolutely necessary and only for brief shots.

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Rafael Amador
Re: Ridiculous FCP Render Times - TWIXTOR
on Aug 4, 2011 at 11:09:00 am

[Josh Celli] "after I had conformed it to 29.97fps in Cinema Tools, in order to acclimate it for the rest of the 29.97 footage. I then changed the speed via the Twixtor plugin to 100.100100, as I have read to do."
You are waisting time and losing one generation.
Twixtor makes no sense here.
Conform and forget about Twixtor.
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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Walter Soyka
Re: Ridiculous FCP Render Times - TWIXTOR
on Aug 4, 2011 at 2:14:26 pm

Your 30 fps footage will get ahead of your 29.97 fps footage by 108 frames per hour, or 1.8 frames per minute.

If you identify the select shots that you want from the 30 fps cameras, you can use the figures above to slip the 30 fps footage which has been conformed to 29.97 back into sync. The difference in original frame rates shouldn't be noticeable on shorter shots.

You could also do a manual pre-pass on the conformed footage before bringing it into multicam -- find some junk areas in the multicam footage that you can't use anyway, and use those spaces to slice and slip the media back into sync.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Walter Soyka
Re: Ridiculous FCP Render Times - TWIXTOR
on Aug 4, 2011 at 3:45:21 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Your 30 fps footage will get ahead of your 29.97 fps footage by 108 frames per hour, or 1.8 frames per minute."

Replying to myself -- if you use Compressor to convert from 30 fps to 29.97 fps, and if you use "Fast (Nearest frame)" as the rate conversion type, you should get roughly 1 duplicated frame every 30 seconds, which you could either live with or cut around (if you can even see it). The duration of the clip, and therefore sync with the other clips, shouldn't change.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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John Pale
Re: idiculous FCP Render Times - TWIXTOR
on Aug 4, 2011 at 5:40:35 pm

Thanks for figuring this out. Great info.


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Walter Soyka
Re: Ridiculous FCP Render Times - TWIXTOR
on Aug 4, 2011 at 6:43:47 pm

[John Pale] "Thanks for figuring this out. Great info."

Thanks, John. Ordinarily, I'd never suggest frame duplication as the solution -- but since this is FlipCam media, there are bound to be larger QC concerns than one little frame here or there, right?

Josh, good luck with your project.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Mac McDougal
Re: Ridiculous FCP Render Times - TWIXTOR
on Sep 15, 2011 at 4:58:11 pm

Hi All, I'm also experiencing long render times in FCP7. I shot everything on a Canon Vixia HF20, whose "standard" frame rate is 60i. I've never figured out how to import this footage directly, so I import it first into iMovie (now FCP X), then import from Events into FCP7.

The sequence settings I'm using for the entire project are:

Frame Size: 1920 x 1080, HDTV 1080i
Pixel Aspect Ratio: Square
Field Dominance: Upper (Odd)
Editing Timbase: 29.97
Compressor: Apple Intermediate Codec

This is an online course with video and 2.5D animation. I'm sure I've done something stupid, the question is What?


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