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Is it better to shoot in 24 FPS and convert to 30 FPS.... or vice versa??

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Steve Bralver
Is it better to shoot in 24 FPS and convert to 30 FPS.... or vice versa??
on Jul 28, 2011 at 8:17:02 am

I am shooting a commercial this weekend.

The station that will air the spot wants it in 29.97 FPS.

However, I have always shot at 23.98 FPS.

My director reel is extremely important to me and everything on my director reel has been shot at 23.98 FPS.

So my question ... which do I shoot the commercial at?

Do I shoot it in the broadcast format of 29.97 FPS and then for my reel, take frames out?

OR

Do I shoot it in 23.98 FPS and then for the broadcast version, add frames?

Thanks,
S


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adam taylor
Re: Is it better to shoot in 24 FPS and convert to 30 FPS.... or vice versa??
on Jul 28, 2011 at 9:32:58 am

depends which is more important to you - your reel or the client who's paying for this broadcast job?

Adam Taylor
Video Editor/Audio Mixer/ Compositor/Motion GFX/Barista
Character Options Ltd
Oldham, UK

http://www.sculptedbliss.co.uk
My YouTube Animations Page


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Chris Tompkins
Re: Is it better to shoot in 24 FPS and convert to 30 FPS.... or vice versa??
on Jul 28, 2011 at 12:02:09 pm

Give the client your best, what they want to the specs. Deliver the best.

Shoot something for your reel next job.

Chris Tompkins
Video Atlanta LLC


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Alan Okey
Re: Is it better to shoot in 24 FPS and convert to 30 FPS.... or vice versa??
on Jul 28, 2011 at 12:37:48 pm

Shoot and edit in native 24p (23.98). Export a QuickTime movie, then use Compressor to create two versions - one at 24p for your reel, and one at 29.97 with 3:2 pulldown added for broadcast.

If you have an AJA Kona card and you're outputting to tape for broadcast, you can let the Kona add 3:2 pulldown on output from FCP instead of using Compressor.


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jerry wise
Re: Is it better to shoot in 24 FPS and convert to 30 FPS.... or vice versa??
on Jul 28, 2011 at 3:38:57 pm

we get 24p spots here at KTVT all the time from FTP or other means...plus we also sometimes shoot in 24p. we can't flip a 24p spot to our server for air. it has to be 29.97 or we get a visit from the chief engineer.
if you deliver to the tv station 24p then someone will probably have to drop your spot on a timeline to inspect it for proper time and video and audio levels...also to see if your graphics etc. falls into the 4x3 aspect ratio that we have to adhere to.
when i get a 24p spot i make a 24p timeline and let my AJA card do the pull-down as i record the spot to xdcam disk. others here will use compressor to add pull-down and then flip the spot directly to the server. the spots still retain the 24 frame look.


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Bret Williams
Re: Is it better to shoot in 24 FPS and convert to 30 FPS.... or vice versa??
on Jul 29, 2011 at 3:29:24 am

Yup. All the judder, stutter, strobing, and jitter you can get at the movie theater will be prevserved. Happy panning! :)


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Jeff Coleman
Re: Is it better to shoot in 24 FPS and convert to 30 FPS.... or vice versa??
on Jul 29, 2011 at 5:30:48 pm

I'd never shoot 30p and try and take frames out. Twixtor, Time and Nightmare renders.

Shoot 24p.
Capture 24p
Edit 24p.
Use pull-down from the editor to record to 29.97i or
Record 24p on your deck and use the pull-down from the deck to do a dub to a 29.97i deck.


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Joseph Owens
Re: Is it better to shoot in 24 FPS and convert to 30 FPS.... or vice versa??
on Jul 29, 2011 at 8:45:45 pm

[Jeff Coleman] "I'd never shoot 30p and try and take frames out."

Agreed. The math doesn't really work. Simply removing every fifth frame will cause an unacceptable strobing "hesitation" motion on any kind of action within the shot and on camera moves. The only acceptable strategy is to use optical flow and re-construct every single frame. It is not the same as "reverse telecine" where there was a 3:2 field cadence introduced to bring 23.98 into the 29.97 world. In 30P there are no redundant fields to take out without interrupting the motion flow.

Be aware that Final Cut does not do proper 3:2 field-interlaced 29.97 output from 23.98 timelines. It only does 2:2:2:4, which is totally pathetic, so you get the same unacceptable jerkiness as trying to go the other way from 30 to 24. Apple thinks its okay, though, just like a lot of things.

jPo

You mean "Old Ben"? Ben Kenobi?


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Steve Bralver
Re: Is it better to shoot in 24 FPS and convert to 30 FPS.... or vice versa??
on Jul 29, 2011 at 8:57:01 pm

So then we will shoot at 24. Whats the best way to convert to 30?


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Alan Okey
Re: Is it better to shoot in 24 FPS and convert to 30 FPS.... or vice versa??
on Jul 29, 2011 at 10:09:41 pm

[Steve Bralver] "Whats the best way to convert to 30?"

That depends on several factors. What is the required delivery format? Do you need to deliver the final output as a file, or on tape? Do you have a video I/O card (AJA Kona, etc.) Installed in your system?

If you don't have a video I/O card and you are delivering a file for broadcast, you must find out the exact details about what file type and specifications the broadcaster requires for delivery. That will determine what software you will need to use for creating the deliverable.

Let us know what the specifications are and we can suggest the proper workflow.


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Jeff Coleman
Re: Is it better to shoot in 24 FPS and convert to 30 FPS.... or vice versa??
on Jul 29, 2011 at 11:59:37 pm

With what are you shooting? i.e., what's your acquisition media?


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Steve Bralver
Re: Is it better to shoot in 24 FPS and convert to 30 FPS.... or vice versa??
on Jul 30, 2011 at 1:25:14 am

Shooting with the Canon 7D.


Here is the required delivery format and specs:

General FTP specs are as follows, while format specific requirements are listed below: Standard Definition (SD) or High Definition (HD).
• Total running time of your spot should be exactly 30 seconds and 00 frames. • All video should be 29.97 frames per second (FPS) and interlaced. • The field dominance parameter must correctly match your video interlacing. • No slate or color bars should be included with your movie.
• Audio levels should regularly peak at -12dBFS on the FCP internal audio meters during playback on your timeline. • Video must be “broadcast safe”: Using the internal FCP ‘Video Scopes’, 0% is black level and 100% is maximum white. Both YCbCr and RGB levels should fall within this range using the ‘Waveform’ and ‘RGB Parade’ panes. When utilizing external measurement devices, 7.5IRE is black level and 100IRE is maximum white in the analog realm, while in RGB, black should not fall below 16 (RGB) and whites shouldn’t exceed 235 (RGB).


When outputting your commercial in HD via Final Cut Pro, please use the settings below: • Export the sequence as a self-contained QuickTime movie using the FCP default preset: HDV 1080i60 (1440x1080) • All graphic & text elements of importance should remain within the HD Title/Safe area.



Based on this info, what would be the proper workflow to take this from 23.98 FPS to 29.97 FPS?

thanks,
S


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