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Prores 4444 export from FCP has gamma shift

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John Palmer
Prores 4444 export from FCP has gamma shift
on Jul 18, 2011 at 2:45:32 pm

Hi!

I am working with Prores 4444 files in FCP 7. I have done my color correcting through 3-way Color Correcter and am now trying to export quicktime.

I am choosing Quicktime Export with current settings with make movie self-contained clicked. (So there is no conversion at all)

But the resulting movie is much lighter than what's in FCP. Seems like a gamma shift.

This never happened with Prores 422 before, am I missing something?

Thanks!

J


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Rafael Amador
Re: Prores 4444 export from FCP has gamma shift
on Jul 18, 2011 at 5:53:53 pm

Hi John,
If your Prores444 comes from Color or AE, is 10b RGB.
FC can´t render in 10b RGB so not sure how manage the process.
Set your sequence to Prores HQ and¨"Render in high Precission" may works.
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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John Palmer
Re: Prores 4444 export from FCP has gamma shift
on Jul 19, 2011 at 10:17:15 am

Thanks Rafael.

My footage comes from 5D, converted using 5DtoRGB. I've tried your method but it didn't work. I get the same gamma shift as before. Did you have any other suggestions?

thanks!

j


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Prores 4444 export from FCP has gamma shift
on Jul 19, 2011 at 2:27:29 am

You should be checking this on an extenal monitor through proper hardware, but make sure that the FCP color compatibility box is checked in QT.


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John Palmer
Re: Prores 4444 export from FCP has gamma shift
on Jul 19, 2011 at 10:14:13 am

Where is the FCP color compatibility box in QT?

I am not doing a QT conversion, so not sure how that relates. I am simply exporting the sequence with "current video&audio settings." When I do the same kind of export with ProRes 422 footage there is no shift. So I don't feel this has anything to do with my monitor/hardware.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Prores 4444 export from FCP has gamma shift
on Jul 19, 2011 at 12:15:42 pm

[John Palmer] "Where is the FCP color compatibility box in QT?"

In the preferences of QT7.

ProRes 444 for 5D material is ultra overkill.


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John Palmer
Re: Prores 4444 export from FCP has gamma shift
on Jul 19, 2011 at 12:25:34 pm

Actually not. Try converting a file into 4444 and 422, look side by side, and you will see a major difference. At least I can with my footage.

If you'd like, you can read further here: http://www.elskid.com/blog/5d-to-rgb-new-transcoding-app-tested-at-home


j


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Prores 4444 export from FCP has gamma shift
on Jul 19, 2011 at 12:35:57 pm

I've tried it. There's a reason it's free.

Your tests dont compare 444 vs 422, but rather streamclip vs 5dtoRGB.


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John Palmer
Re: Prores 4444 export from FCP has gamma shift
on Jul 19, 2011 at 3:42:55 pm

Sorry James, read this one as well. http://www.elskid.com/blog/5d-to-rgb-the-follow-up-bigger-comparison-yes-ye...

In any case, I made my own tests converting to both 4444 and 422, and I can see a clear difference on my calibrated Eizo 211 monitor.

You mention that 5DtoRGB is free. Is there a paid product that does a better job at converting? If so, could you let me know the name?

I had a discovery. When I export using "Quicktime conversion" from FCP, then there is no gamma shift. When I export using "Quicktime " from FCP, there is a shift. Seems like a bug to me. Or there is a magical setting somewhere...

j


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Prores 4444 export from FCP has gamma shift
on Jul 19, 2011 at 3:52:24 pm

[John Palmer] "I had a discovery. When I export using "Quicktime conversion" from FCP, then there is no gamma shift. When I export using "Quicktime " from FCP, there is a shift. Seems like a bug to me. Or there is a magical setting somewhere..."

There is no way to accurately judge this accept on a calibrated monitor through proper hardware out of FCP. My bet is that you don't have a 444 capable monitor, is that right? how do you have the Eizo hooked up? Not through a Kona I imagine?

Do you have QT 7 installed?


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John Palmer
Re: Prores 4444 export from FCP has gamma shift
on Jul 19, 2011 at 3:59:37 pm

You're right, I'm not sure if my monitor is 444 capable. It's 12 bit, but is meant for photography and not video. so not sure beyond that...
http://www.eizo.com/global/products/coloredge/cg211/index.html

no I don't have a kona connection..

I have QT7 installed yes.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Prores 4444 export from FCP has gamma shift
on Jul 19, 2011 at 4:05:07 pm

[John Palmer] "no I don't have a kona connection.."

Then you cannot accurate judge the video as you are not watching the true representation, especially when you get in to ProRes 444 which can be RGB or YUV.

In QT7, open the prefs and choose "Enable Final Cut Studio color compatibility".

What you are seeing in FCP is an approximation as is what you are seeing in Quicktime. The gamma is only handled correctly when sent out of proper hardware to a capable video monitor.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Prores 4444 export from FCP has gamma shift
on Jul 19, 2011 at 4:01:31 pm

OK. In these tests, look at the E1 result and the 5dtoRGB 2.2 result.


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John Palmer
Re: Prores 4444 export from FCP has gamma shift
on Jul 19, 2011 at 4:16:43 pm

they are very much alike, but I still prefer the 5dtorgb. especially the 1.8 version
but more importantly, when 5dtorgb is used to convert into 4444, it makes a huge difference. i have no idea why, i'm just processing the same file into both 422hq and 4444, and seeing a large difference in the image. transitions are much smoother with less noise.

i clicked the box in qt7 as you suggested. but still no luck. however i'm happy now that at least i can convert using "quicktime conversion" and my output comes out very similar to what I see in fcp.

my plan is to move this file into QT7 to convert into a vimeo format.

is there a drawback to this? i usually just exported with current settings and then moved into QT7

thanks


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Prores 4444 export from FCP has gamma shift
on Jul 19, 2011 at 6:16:52 pm

[John Palmer] "they are very much alike, but I still prefer the 5dtorgb. especially the 1.8 version"

Yeah, but HD video has a gamma of 2.2. It is at this point, I realize that you might be in a bit over your head.

Just do what you think looks best, I'm sure Vimeo won't care.


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Rafael Amador
Re: Prores 4444 export from FCP has gamma shift
on Jul 19, 2011 at 7:48:23 pm

Prores444 is something to be avoided unless you need a good Alpha channel.
A codec where you can´t decide the Color Space is a trap.
Prores 444 coming from 5DtoRGB, is 10b/RGB, so not the best option for converting 8bYUV/420 stuff to be edited in FCP.
Go ProresHQ.
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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Evan Burns
Re: Prores 4444 export from FCP has gamma shift
on Aug 9, 2011 at 5:07:07 am

From what I have read and what I have experienced. 4444 from 5DtoRGB is the best quality possible, but the file sizes are nearly unmanageable. 422 HQ from 5DtoRGB and 422 HQ from Compressor are almost 100% identical (5DtoRGB is slightly better at around 400% magnification). But for some reason, this isn't the case with 4444. Strangely enough 4444 out of 5DtoRGB has a much bigger impact than the other options. Is it overkill? Probably, but for people who obsesses over the absolute best quality you can get, not so much.

As for the gamma shift, something else is going on there and this article might help shed some light on that - http://motionlifemediablog.wordpress.com/2010/09/02/5dtorgb-color-tests/


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