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I/O Card + Deck? Need advice.

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Jeshua Horca
I/O Card + Deck? Need advice.
on Jul 15, 2011 at 7:03:40 pm

Alright, so I'm looking to buy a new I/O card and a deck. Here's the rundown (a long story short):

I've got some footage that's about to be broadcasted--but my company doesn't want to spend so much money constantly sending our footage to third-parties that convert our footage to Beta tapes and do closed-captioning, so we're looking to buy our own equipment.

I'm still a little new to Beta tapes and all of that stuff so my questions are:
- What kind of I/O Card do I want (or need)?
- What or which kind of deck do I need?
- Any other little thingies I need?

Some hardware specs of my machine:
iMac
Intel Core i7
3.7 Ghz
16 GB RAM
[1GB] AMD Radeon HD 6970M (PCIe)

Any help would be appreciated!


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Everest Mokaeff
Re: I/O Card + Deck? Need advice.
on Jul 15, 2011 at 7:18:39 pm

If you're gonna work with beta cam you're very lucky since they were phased out by digital beta cams decades ago so you won't have a plenty of choice of them on the market. You need the one capable of recording VTC. Without this function you won't pass QT.
As to I/O card, again, on iMac you can use only those pluggable via FW so your choice is not that great.

Sony PMW-EX3, Canon Mark II 5D, FCS3 in Moscow
http://www.mokaeff.com


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Jeshua Horca
Re: I/O Card + Deck? Need advice.
on Jul 15, 2011 at 7:22:12 pm

Like I said, I'm still quite new to all this.

Do you know of any Firewire compatible cards? I've been looking at some Blackmagic cards.

As for the tapes, The studio requires either Beta SP, Beta SX, or Digibeta. I'm trying to find some hardware that will allow me to get my footage onto -any- of these three formats.


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Everest Mokaeff
Re: I/O Card + Deck? Need advice.
on Jul 15, 2011 at 7:42:12 pm

Out of three you mentioned Digibeta is most expensive. I can't say much about I/O cards because I work only with aja and so far so good (the last 5 yrs). AJA markets external io card but I personally find the price tag not that attractive.
By functionality aja, matrox, and black magic give you approximately the same level of confidence. I think you must justify your decision by sheer economics and your personal likes or dislikes.

Sony PMW-EX3, Canon Mark II 5D, FCS3 in Moscow
http://www.mokaeff.com


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Shane Ross
Re: I/O Card + Deck? Need advice.
on Jul 15, 2011 at 7:56:06 pm

You're on an iMac? Sorry, nothing will work for you. There is the AJA IO HD, that connects via firewire, but takes over the firewire bus. Meaning you cannot use firewire drives. And without firewire drives, you cannot capture on an iMac. USB doesn't work for video....the internal hard drive won't.

YOu need a Mac Pro or a MacBook Pro (17" with Express34 slot) so you have the slots needed to add a capture device.

Shane

GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Everest Mokaeff
Re: I/O Card + Deck? Need advice.
on Jul 15, 2011 at 8:02:47 pm

Shane,
With all due respect I disagree.
On iMac he can use internal drive for capture.
Secondly, he will output material, not capture, so your whole point about FW gets irrelevant.
Thirdly, I can capture on external drive connected via USB, it works without issue for years on my mac pro. I'm sure it'll do the same way on iMac.

Sony PMW-EX3, Canon Mark II 5D, FCS3 in Moscow
http://www.mokaeff.com


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Shane Ross
Re: I/O Card + Deck? Need advice.
on Jul 15, 2011 at 8:10:13 pm

[Everest Mokaeff] "On iMac he can use internal drive for capture."

Not reliably. SOme people can capture fine without dropping frames. Others cannot. It is about 35% reliable...meaning 65% of the people who try cannot. I cannot. Even with a 7200 RPM drive. Because it contains the OS, and the computer constantly accesses the OS. When it goes looking for a system resource, it will pause capture and BOOM, dropped frames. It can be done, but not reliably. And I demand reliability.

[Everest Mokaeff] "Secondly, he will output material, not capture, so your whole point about FW gets irrelevant."

Wrong. Again, even with output, the system drive is not a good option. It will still drop frames even on output if it needed to access a system resource. Not fun when you are 19 min into a 22 min output. Again, not reliable.

[Everest Mokaeff] "Thirdly, I can capture on external drive connected via USB, it works without issue for years on my mac pro. I'm sure it'll do the same way on iMac."

You are rare. How many posts on the Cow do you see with people who cannot capture without dropping frames, and they are using USB drives. It might work for some, just like the system drive, but not for everyone. This one is even worse than System drive. Only about 10% of the people can get this to work.

When doing professional outputs...captures...I demand relibility. iMacs do not offer that with an IO device. They can edit fine, but not capture/output via capture card 100%.

Shane

GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Everest Mokaeff
Re: I/O Card + Deck? Need advice.
on Jul 15, 2011 at 8:18:31 pm

Obviously you're pretty good at math but I don't see where your statistics come from. Please provide a link if you can.
I stick to my guns: You can use iMac for outputing to deck. Even with HD footage on boot disk you have enough leeway to do that. Though I would not recommend using iMac in full circle production.

Sony PMW-EX3, Canon Mark II 5D, FCS3 in Moscow
http://www.mokaeff.com


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Shane Ross
Re: I/O Card + Deck? Need advice.
on Jul 15, 2011 at 8:23:06 pm

My math comes from YEARS of experience on these forums, plus troubleshooting for post houses and various productions. Seeing what people are writing in with issues about. It's all a rough ballpark, but know that it isn't 100% with internal drives, or USB drives.

[Everest Mokaeff] " You can use iMac for outputing to deck. Even with HD footage on boot disk you have enough leeway to do that. "

I'd never trust my final outputs for this. Have you tried? Beyond HDV/DV? Didn't work with DVCPRO HD for us... and I did have a client with the IO HD and an iMac. Nothing but issues. moved to my MacPro, all went fine.

Shane

GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Everest Mokaeff
Re: I/O Card + Deck? Need advice.
on Jul 15, 2011 at 8:35:41 pm

I'm arrogant bastard - never touched iMac or mac mini for work.
Final output doesn't require a leap of faith - if you dropped frame while editing to tape process will abort. Other things like field issues, for example, have nothing to do specifically with iMacs or Mac Pros.
I read lots of posts over here and some other places - people always have problems there where I never have had a single issue of that kind or magnitude.

Sony PMW-EX3, Canon Mark II 5D, FCS3 in Moscow
http://www.mokaeff.com


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Shane Ross
Re: I/O Card + Deck? Need advice.
on Jul 15, 2011 at 8:39:35 pm

[Everest Mokaeff] "Final output doesn't require a leap of faith - if you dropped frame while editing to tape process will abort."

Which means you have to start over. And that is no way to work. What if it drops frames a lot? that means outputting over and over and over again. Not the best plan...horrible in fact.

[Everest Mokaeff] "Other things like field issues, for example, have nothing to do specifically with iMacs or Mac Pros."

No one mentioned field issues.

[Everest Mokaeff] "I read lots of posts over here and some other places - people always have problems there where I never have had a single issue of that kind or magnitude."

You're special. That's you. But you see that it is a HUGE problem for other people. I don't have issues with my system drive either. But I don't recommend it because it is very unreliable for most people. It's horrible practice to say "Hey, do this. It works for me...not for a LOT of people, but it does for me, so you could be fine. Or not. But it works sometimes...for some people." No...gotta recommend what is rock solid. Reputation is everything.

Shane

GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Everest Mokaeff
Re: I/O Card + Deck? Need advice.
on Jul 15, 2011 at 8:47:50 pm

I do understand you completely. You err on the right side sometimes overprotecting or oversimplifying things. I agree it's prudent and in long run will yield better. I do not advocate here some drastic measures or totally unrealistic and not practical steps.
The original question was can I output to deck from iMac. I said Yes, though I'd not condone using iMacs for production. You said No because issues are increasingly likely to occur.
We are not that far apart at the of the day, are we.

Sony PMW-EX3, Canon Mark II 5D, FCS3 in Moscow
http://www.mokaeff.com


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Chris Tompkins
Re: I/O Card + Deck? Need advice.
on Jul 15, 2011 at 9:07:36 pm

AJA IO LA if you still can get it. It is SD though. Don't forget Ebay. OR the AJA IO HD uses the FW connection.

All the analog connections you need to lay off to tape.
Get a Blackburst/sync generator with the deck.

If you need to capture via FW, like from a DV deck or something, unplug the AJA IO and capture. Then when you want to run the video out to a monitor and/or deck, plug the AJA back in the FW port.

Chris Tompkins
Video Atlanta LLC


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Scott Sheriff
Re: I/O Card + Deck? Need advice.
on Jul 15, 2011 at 11:04:36 pm

This guy posted this earlier, and when he re-posted it here, he neglected to mention that he was using FCE, not FCS. On his original post where I said he would need an I/O card, I also said I wasn't sure if FCE worked with I/O cards.
Anyone have any thoughts on that?

Scott Sheriff
Director
http://www.sstdigitalmedia.com


"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." ---Red Adair

Where were you on 6/21?


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Shane Ross
Re: I/O Card + Deck? Need advice.
on Jul 15, 2011 at 11:21:00 pm

Final Cut EXPRESS? That wasn't mentioned. FCE does NOT work with IO devices. At all. Period. Sorry, need FCP 7 for that. Oooohhhh...it's no longer for sale. And FCP X doesn't do this.

Hmmm...but...AJA does ship a capture and output application for their hardware. Just export a self contained QT file, and use that to output to the deck.

But not with an iMac. Unless you want to spend $3500 to test that with an IO HD.

Shane

GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Scott Sheriff
Re: I/O Card + Deck? Need advice.
on Jul 15, 2011 at 11:41:04 pm

[Shane Ross] "Final Cut EXPRESS? That wasn't mentioned. FCE does NOT work with IO devices. At all. Period. Sorry, need FCP 7 for that. Oooohhhh...it's no longer for sale. And FCP X doesn't do this.

Hmmm...but...AJA does ship a capture and output application for their hardware. Just export a self contained QT file, and use that to output to the deck.

But not with an iMac. Unless you want to spend $3500 to test that with an IO HD."


That's what I thought, but I wasn't 100% sure. I said I thought he was going to have to send it out to someone with a deck and a card.

Here's the OP, it says FCE, but maybe its a typo???:
"So, I've got a bunch of footage edited for national broadcast in FCE. However, the TV studio production procedures state that the footage needs to be submitted in either Beta SP, Digital Beta, or Beta SX. Is there anyway I can get my footage onto these tapes at a decently affordable price? I would prefer to do any conversions "in-house" rather than send it out to some third-party company. Does anyone know how I can get my footage to these tapes?
I did a little of my own research and I might need a deck converter or something.
Any ideas?
"

Looks like the 'Easy Button' won't work here.
How the heck do folks manage to get national level work using only Express?

Scott Sheriff
Director
http://www.sstdigitalmedia.com


"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." ---Red Adair

Where were you on 6/21?


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Rainer Wirth
Re: I/O Card + Deck? Need advice.
on Jul 16, 2011 at 4:35:32 pm

the workflow is clearly SD.
I would go with an AJa IO (buy a used one in SD). It works with FW 400 Bus.
As a HD drive I can recommend a Sonnet 400 (FW800) Raid 5. There should be enough performance for SD. As a codec I would go with DVCPro50. There can be a problem with SD 10bit uncompressed.
Capture files on the Sonnet Raid, render files on internal HD (non critical data)
What about USB 3?
I don't know much of an IMac. The next step would be eSata (The Sonnet can also run eSata)
Tape wise I would go for Digibeta (very good, even in HD workflow). Most Digibeta recorders also take Beta SP. A used one isn't that expensive. Digi Beta is rock solid.
I hope this helps

Rainer



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