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reverse telecine of wrongly captured DVX100B 24p footage

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michael freund
reverse telecine of wrongly captured DVX100B 24p footage
on Jun 20, 2011 at 4:41:19 am

hi creative cow users,

i have been the beneficiary of many posters here, some of them revolutionized the way i use FCP, with hardly any hickups any longer, if you can believe it. i am very appreciative of this forum.

today i have a question myself. recently got hired to edit a documentary that was shot on DV. the whole thing got captured wrong, see below. please indulge me with the question i have below.

thank you!

1) so, the footage seems to have been shot both 24p and 24p advanced, but captured into FCP with regular dv preset without pulldown removal, resulting in clips that have either one or two out of the 5 frames interlaced.

2) i have successfully done a reverse telecine on a clip from original, captured-onto-a-drive footage with cinema tools.

(apparently how you determine whether footage was shot in 24p or 24p Advance is, Regular 24p in its 30 fps form has two interlacing frames every five, and Advance just has one.) (this confirms in our case that most of the footage was shot in 24p advanced.)

3) i have also re-captured that same segment from point 2) from the original tape, with the advanced pulldown capture setting in FCP.

4) both resulting clips, when looking at them on my computer monitor - both imac as well as cinema display - look identical to the eye. ie, both look great.

5) question: could it be that i am not seeing something on my computer monitor - something that on an external ntsc monitor, for example could be visible - that would present a strong case for re-capturing all tapes we have, rather than the one-click reverse telecine of already captured material? (the latter would take only a fraction of time: we have 180 hours of footage)

ultimate display format will be theatres and dvds, so i am looking for the ultimate possible quality of our footage.

your thoughts are appreciated. thanks in advance for your time and consideration!

michael

http://www.michaelfreund.net


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Jerry Hofmann
Re: reverse telecine of wrongly captured DVX100B 24p footage
on Jun 20, 2011 at 12:52:44 pm

If you remove the pulldown from any of the 24p material it all becomes 24 fps... so it should match, and it doesn't matter whether it was PA or P... Don't think recapturing will do any better than the software removal either. The actual difference between 24pa and 24p is the pulldown pattern itself. 24PA is 2:3:3:2 and 24p is 2:3:2:3. When you remove the redundant fields from either format you end up with 24fps QT movies.The structure of 24PA footage (2:3:3:2) makes it easier to capture it as true 24fps removing the pulldown during capture. 2323 footage has to go through software.

And when you view externally, the fields are added back during playback FWIW... Most all video monitors can only display 29.97. In the end, I'd make the DVD's 24p and let the players add back the pulldown pattern. Also it's a lot easier to have a true 24fps QT movie transferred to film for theatrical display.

Jerry

Apple Certified Trainer, Producer, Writer, Director Editor, Gun for Hire and other things. I ski. My Blog: http://blogs.creativecow.net/Jerry-Hofmann

Current DVD:
http://store.creativecow.net/p/81/jerry_hofmanns_final_cut_system_setup

8-Core 3.0 Intel Mac Pro, Dual 2 gig G5, AJA Kona SD, AJA Kona 2, Huge Systems Array UL3D, AJA Io HD, 17" MBP, Matrox MXO2 with MAX - Cinema Displays I have a 22" that I paid 4k for still working. G4 with Kona SD card, and SCSI card.


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michael freund
Re: reverse telecine of wrongly captured DVX100B 24p footage
on Jun 21, 2011 at 1:29:53 am

hi jerry.

thanks for your quick and comprehensive answer.

i think i am clear on reversing telecine on the 24p advanced footage (with only one interlaced looking frame) with the simple one-click cinema tools reverse telecine command.

i am not clear on the 24p normal footage (with two interlaced looking frames per five). the reverse telecine window that opens gives me the AA, BB, BC, CD, DD etc options, and as far as i can tell, i need to know which frame is the A frame, but don't know how to determine that. there may be more i need to do - the whole field dominance situation. how would i proceed with this sort of clip?

and, will there not be an issue in my sequence/ timeline with some clips (24p reverse telecine clips) having field dominance and some (24pA reverse telecine clips) not?

interesting note, and i think i would agree given my experience, on 24fps qts for theatrical. that makes sense. and thanks for your comment on external monitors.

thank you again - that really helped.

michael



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Jerry Hofmann
Re: reverse telecine of wrongly captured DVX100B 24p footage
on Jun 21, 2011 at 2:12:32 am

There are step by step instructions on how to remove the pulldown pattern in the Cinema Tools' manual. Search it with the terms: "Removing 2:3:3:2 or 2:3:2:3 Pull-Down with Cinema Tools".

Jerry

Apple Certified Trainer, Producer, Writer, Director Editor, Gun for Hire and other things. I ski. My Blog: http://blogs.creativecow.net/Jerry-Hofmann

Current DVD:
http://store.creativecow.net/p/81/jerry_hofmanns_final_cut_system_setup

8-Core 3.0 Intel Mac Pro, Dual 2 gig G5, AJA Kona SD, AJA Kona 2, Huge Systems Array UL3D, AJA Io HD, 17" MBP, Matrox MXO2 with MAX - Cinema Displays I have a 22" that I paid 4k for still working. G4 with Kona SD card, and SCSI card.


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michael freund
Re: reverse telecine of wrongly captured DVX100B 24p footage
on Jun 21, 2011 at 5:08:01 am

i have read and re-read these sections several times. i cannot glean from this the description how you can actually tell the field dominance, in captured footage that did not originate in film and has a hole burnt in at the A frame. or footage that does not have window burn. i think i read somewhere the A frame is two frames back from the first interlaced one, but my editor buddy told me years ago it's the second of the two interlaced frames.

in both scenarios, i would still not know which pulldown pattern to choose, or how to tell whether the video contains only field 1 or only field 2, or both fields and whichever of the two is the dominant one, or why it matters that i discovered the A frame in the first place.

p. 128 determining field capture information. etc.

i am sure it's right in front of me, i feel i am on the verge of it, but i am not seeing it. any hint?

thanks again!

michael



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michael freund
Re: reverse telecine of wrongly captured DVX100B 24p footage
on Jun 22, 2011 at 5:45:51 pm

jerry,

i think i may have found the answer. i never bothered to actually look at those clips that the reverse telecine function wouldn't do "automatically," for more than a few frames. it turns out they all have different clips within them. in other words, they were captured with the "abort capture on dropped frames" unchecked. naturally the program doesn't know what to do with them as they have dropped frames and the whole 5 frames scenario starts over and over again throughout the tape/file.

i presume my task is now to make individual clips out of all those "combined" clips and then run cinema tools on all of them separately, which should not cause any issues.

best,
michael



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Jerry Hofmann
Re: reverse telecine of wrongly captured DVX100B 24p footage
on Jun 22, 2011 at 5:59:29 pm

Sure sounds like you are on the right track to me.

Jerry

Apple Certified Trainer, Producer, Writer, Director Editor, Gun for Hire and other things. I ski. My Blog: http://blogs.creativecow.net/Jerry-Hofmann

Current DVD:
http://store.creativecow.net/p/81/jerry_hofmanns_final_cut_system_setup

8-Core 3.0 Intel Mac Pro, Dual 2 gig G5, AJA Kona SD, AJA Kona 2, Huge Systems Array UL3D, AJA Io HD, 17" MBP, Matrox MXO2 with MAX - Cinema Displays I have a 22" that I paid 4k for still working. G4 with Kona SD card, and SCSI card.


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