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dvcprohd into prores 422 LT question

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frank Delaney
dvcprohd into prores 422 LT question
on Jun 15, 2011 at 10:41:14 am

Hi Folks,

Just wondering am I missing something here.

I'm editing a documentary with large amounts of footage - it will probably end up at 70 hours of footage.

I was thinking of editing in prores proxy - so I can work in HD size.

However I am thinking if I edit in prores LT I could probably work at full resolution.

I'm shooting on a panasonic varicam 720p 50. This is DVCPROHD @100mbs

Am I right in thinking this will fit into prores LT which is a 100mbs wrapper without loosing any quality - thus allowing me to work full res with much lower file sizes than prores

Am I missing anything here?

Thanks in advance


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: dvcprohd into prores 422 LT question
on Jun 15, 2011 at 12:47:31 pm

Is this tape or tapeless Varicam? And have you already started shooting?


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frank Delaney
Re: dvcprohd into prores 422 LT question
on Jun 15, 2011 at 1:18:25 pm

Its Tape and yes we have already started shooting - but not digitising yet....

why?


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: dvcprohd into prores 422 LT question
on Jun 15, 2011 at 1:23:41 pm

Just curious as you could shoot 25p over 50 and save half the disk space.

With 70 hours, I would think about Proxy, depending on your storage situation.

70 hours of LT is over 3TBs. Proxy is 1.4TBs.

Then do an online at the end with ProRes or HQ.


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frank Delaney
Re: dvcprohd into prores 422 LT question
on Jun 15, 2011 at 2:08:10 pm

I am actually shooting 720p 25 (sorry) ......Digitising through Kona 3 upsizing to 1080....

Its borderline, I could edit in proxy - which is what I was thinking too and then online at the end....

What would be the point of onlining at prores HQ or standard prores? It wont give me any higher quality will it - if my source material is only 100mbs

doing the whole thing LT is attractive as I will be working full res all the time, no online (as I have loads of archive material coming in in all forms from stills to graphics.....) so I would avoid a time consuming online for only 3tb....

Its tempting isn't it????

If it was a decision between standard prores and proxy I would go proxy....

Will LT have enough headroom for this and....

Apart from drive and file size will proxy give me any benefits - such as speed.

I'm using esata drives anyway (not that it make a huge difference on prores.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: dvcprohd into prores 422 LT question
on Jun 15, 2011 at 6:41:37 pm

First, what is your deliverable in this gig?

Second, are you using the kona or the deck to cross convert to 1080?

[frank Delaney] "hat would be the point of onlining at prores HQ or standard prores? It wont give me any higher quality will it - if my source material is only 100mbs"

Absolutely. ProRes Proxy is just that, a Proxy. It is not meant to deliver a master, the image is not online quality.

[frank Delaney] "doing the whole thing LT is attractive as I will be working full res all the time, no online (as I have loads of archive material coming in in all forms from stills to graphics.....) so I would avoid a time consuming online for only 3tb...."

If you really don't want to online, then I'd suggest ProRes at the very least. 70 hours of ProRes @ 1080sf25 will be 4.4 TB (now this is just your tape sourced media, if getting more media you will need more space with overhed. Plus all the render files and misc. do-dads).

[frank Delaney] "If it was a decision between standard prores and proxy I would go proxy...."

You can't deliver Proxy

[frank Delaney] "Will LT have enough headroom for this and...."

It's more compressed than SQ or HQ.

[frank Delaney] "Apart from drive and file size will proxy give me any benefits - such as speed."

Not much in my experience.


[frank Delaney] "I'm using esata drives anyway (not that it make a huge difference on prores"


How many do you have?


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David Roth Weiss
Re: dvcprohd into prores 422 LT question
on Jun 15, 2011 at 7:08:39 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "If you really don't want to online, then I'd suggest ProRes at the very least."

Absolutely!!! As Jeremy will attest from our many discussions, I abhor "unnecessary redos," which is my nomenclature for any unnecessary offline/online procedures.

Using ProRes LT is just asking for a redo, because it is inferior to ProRes 422, and visibly so.

And, using eSATA and/or a RAID always makes a difference at every level of editing. Trust me, you'll never see anyone who owns a RAID suddenly whip out a Firewire drive because their RAID is overkill. The entire editing experience is better when you have throughput and system overhead that exceed your actual requirements. You can't be too rich, too thin, have too much RAM (after FCP X arrives that is ), or have too much throughput from your media drive(s).

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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frank Delaney
Re: dvcprohd into prores 422 LT question
on Jun 15, 2011 at 10:13:33 pm

Thanks guys all really great input.

Regarding quality of codecs, I was of the understanding that the codec is just the wrapper, the algorithm - so for example if I'm shooting canon 5d - 50mbs Pro res LT is a wrapper capable of up to 100mbs therefore (like putting a small box into a larger one) will not provide any better quality than Prores HQ for this footage. Is this not correct....

I did this test myself and saw no noticeable difference between the two.

However if my footage capture is over 100mbs then of course LT will be compressing and thus I loose quality which is where prores or HQ come in....

Whereas If I am capturing 100mbs footage whats being compressed and lost by LT that prores or prores HQ will give me extra of?


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David Roth Weiss
Re: dvcprohd into prores 422 LT question
on Jun 15, 2011 at 11:10:38 pm

[frank Delaney] "I was of the understanding that the codec is just the wrapper, the algorithm - so for example if I'm shooting canon 5d - 50mbs Pro res LT is a wrapper capable of up to 100mbs therefore (like putting a small box into a larger one) will not provide any better quality than Prores HQ for this footage. Is this not correct...."

Only up to a certain point. If any color information is discarded, then you may notice it (certainly after losing a few generations), and the material is more difficult to color grade.

[frank Delaney] "I did this test myself and saw no noticeable difference between the two."

On what type of monitor? Most monitors are not good enough to the difference, but it's there. And, a lot of mediocre video has a lot more issues than just those added by the codec.

I can see a difference between LT and ProRes 422 on my monitor, especially noticeable when color correcting, as the color space is essentially fractionalized. And, the better the material, the bigger the difference, making it more easily discernible.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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frank Delaney
Re: dvcprohd into prores 422 LT question
on Jun 16, 2011 at 8:34:00 am

I thought I had understood these codecs fully.....Just when I thought I was out they pull me back in.....

Okay that all makes sense thanks fellas.

So....I'm getting material out of a Panavision 720p shot at 25fps. I'll have about 60 -70 hours approx over the next 3 months. There'll be lots of archive too on different formats (not sure what yet)

I am capturing through a kona3 upping to 1080i25.

So I'm probably better then capturing in prores proxy - offlining and then and re-conforming the timeline clips when we finish the offline at prores HQ.

Then onlining and mastering in HQ?


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: dvcprohd into prores 422 LT question
on Jun 16, 2011 at 3:20:17 pm

What deck are you using?


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frank Delaney
Re: dvcprohd into prores 422 LT question
on Jun 16, 2011 at 3:27:15 pm

I'm using the Panasonic Varicam AJHD1200A


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: dvcprohd into prores 422 LT question
on Jun 16, 2011 at 3:38:50 pm

If I can remember correctly, you should be able to use that deck to cross convert to 1080psf25 (it should extract the proper 25p frames from the 50p stream and send psf). In my opinion, your quality might be a little better.

An offline at Proxy sounds good to me. Remember, the rest of the footage you get doesn't have to be ProRes Proxy, you can make that HQ right off the bat. It will make the online easier, as a tape recapture is pretty easy, provided you take all the proper steps.

Jeremy


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