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29.97 footage in a 23.98 project?

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Enrico Lappano
29.97 footage in a 23.98 project?
on Jun 12, 2011 at 10:35:00 pm

I have a lot of HDV and 7D doc interview footage that was filmed in 29.97 Fps. I want to continue the project but I'd like to film the new footage in 23.98. I'd like to end up with a 23.98 project. What is the best way to approach such a change between old and new?


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David Roth Weiss
Re: 29.97 footage in a 23.98 project?
on Jun 12, 2011 at 10:55:33 pm

[Enrico Lappano] "I want to continue the project but I'd like to film the new footage in 23.98."

Why? Because you want the "filmlook?"

If so, you don't really want to do that Enrico, you only think you do. You're letting yourself in for a world of trouble by changing frame rates at this point.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Shane Ross
Re: 29.97 footage in a 23.98 project?
on Jun 12, 2011 at 11:35:05 pm

If you want the film look, you can do that later. Shoot ALL the same frame rate. Mixing rates in FCP is UGLY.

There is the Film Effects plugin from nattress.com that only costs $99, that you can apply to everything.

Shane

GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Enrico Lappano
Re: 29.97 footage in a 23.98 project?
on Jun 12, 2011 at 11:47:52 pm

Yes, you guessed it. It's to get "that film look." The predominant footage is 29.97. But if I'm hearing you guys correctly, perhaps I should continue shooting in 29.97 (not 23.98), edit the project in Apple ProRes at that frame rate and change it over to 23.98 after the edit is over with Nattress Film Effects. That will in the end give the very same 23.98 effect?

So, it really ultimately doesn't make a difference what frame rate the footage is shot in because that can be fixed later?


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David Roth Weiss
Re: 29.97 footage in a 23.98 project?
on Jun 13, 2011 at 12:02:51 am

You really don't need to change the frame rate. Your audience won't care about that. It's the look you desire, and 95% of that is proper technique in post.

The primary reason you're even thinking this at this stage is because your camera, like all properly adjusted cameras, records very low-contrast images, which is what you're looking at now. That's done by design to give you increased latitude in post, so you can color grade as you desire, without being restricted by the narrow dynamic range that beautiful footage right out of the camera would otherwise afford.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Shane Ross
Re: 29.97 footage in a 23.98 project?
on Jun 13, 2011 at 12:34:39 am

The filter will not convert it to 23.98...it will apply the 24p film look, which is what you are going for.

Shane

GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Bret Williams
Re: 29.97 footage in a 23.98 project?
on Jun 13, 2011 at 1:45:30 am

I find it strange that small players are trying to get their footage to look better by lowering a frame rate, while the big boys like Cameron, Jackson and Lucas are lobbyng to get digital projection frame rates doubled and quadrupled so they can shoot 48fps or 60fps to increase the realism and resolution.


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Enrico Lappano
Re: 29.97 footage in a 23.98 project?
on Jun 13, 2011 at 1:54:00 am

Thanks for your feedback David and Shane. Your explanations are very helpful!

I'm coming in from an SD background, new still to HD. Planning a whole new project in the future, is there a preferred frame rate for a project going to Blue Ray that will be screened on a digital projector to a large screen?


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Shane Ross
Re: 29.97 footage in a 23.98 project?
on Jun 13, 2011 at 7:55:22 am

[Enrico Lappano] "Planning a whole new project in the future, is there a preferred frame rate for a project going to Blue Ray that will be screened on a digital projector to a large screen?
"


BluRay does 29.97 and 23.98. So it's all up to you as for the look you want. Feature film? Or Video? Film is 24p, video is 29.97.

Shane

GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Dave LaRonde
Re: 29.97 footage in a 23.98 project?
on Jun 13, 2011 at 4:53:40 pm

[Enrico Lappano] "So, it really ultimately doesn't make a difference what frame rate the footage is shot in because that can be fixed later?"

The only way the answer would be "yes" is if you enjoy extra pain during a project, doing extra work and spending extra time just to give yourself that luxury of changing horses in midstream.

If you don't, then you decide on a frame rate before you even begin shooting.

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Enrico Lappano
Re: 29.97 footage in a 23.98 project?
on Jun 13, 2011 at 7:34:49 pm

Sorry, I could have stated my question clearer. What I meant to ask was for example, even if I shoot an entire project at 29.97 fps, (which will naturally give it a video look), if I decide afterwards that it should have a film look (ie. 24P or 23.98 fps),can that be changed in post in subtle degrees, or is something like the Nattress Film Effects more of a general type effect?


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Shane Ross
Re: 29.97 footage in a 23.98 project?
on Jun 13, 2011 at 7:39:07 pm

Yes.

Shane

GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Enrico Lappano
Re: 29.97 footage in a 23.98 project?
on Jun 13, 2011 at 11:02:43 pm

Thanks Shane! I'm looking forward to trying it out.


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John Heagy
Re: 29.97 footage in a 23.98 project?
on Jun 13, 2011 at 11:14:02 pm

If your 29.97 footage was shot with a 7D than it's 29.97p and not the typical "videoy" 29.97i. 23.98p from 29.97i is arguably doable (I'd argue against it) but 29.97p to 23.98p is asking for poor results. The only way to get acceptable results is to use optical flow tech in Compressor, Twixtor and the like. If you have complex imagery and crossing motion it will look bad.

I suggest hitting the easy button here and continue with 29.97p. At least test at 29.97p to 23.98p conversion with a moving subject matter and decide based on that.

I don't believe Nattress uses optical flow tech... correct me if I'm wrong.

John Heagy


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Shane Ross
Re: 29.97 footage in a 23.98 project?
on Jun 13, 2011 at 11:16:59 pm

Oooo...right. The Nattress plugin is for INTERLACED material. It won't work on 29.97 progressive.

Shane

GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Enrico Lappano
Re: 29.97 footage in a 23.98 project?
on Jun 14, 2011 at 2:14:49 pm

Using Compressor, and frame controls, what are the best settings for a 29.97 to 23.98 conversion test?


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Shane Nye
Re: 29.97 footage in a 23.98 project?
on Jan 14, 2012 at 12:03:15 am

Which Nattress filter are you referring to Shane?

I used the Nattress Graeme G Film Converter to convert DVCPRO HD 108030p to ProRes HQ 1080p24. Looks great after ran some tests and tweeked the settings. If you download the manuals for that and Film Effects filter it's pretty straight forward.

I have not yet tested this filter on interlaced material, ugh like the iPhone, a HD Flip Cam, and other consumer HD formats of the day.

Shane Nye



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