FORUMS: list search recent posts

Tv frequency doesn't matter?

COW Forums : Apple Final Cut Pro Legacy

<< PREVIOUS   •   FAQ   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
Jason Brown
Tv frequency doesn't matter?
on Jun 7, 2011 at 12:10:54 pm

I had someone tell me yesterday from china that all he needed to know was frame rate, 30p or 60i...because I told him NTSC at 30p and he told me that no one uses the language NTSC or pal anymore...just dealing in frame rates.

So while I understand this, because it's either 50 or 25 OR 60 or 30. Are those the only 2 tv systems out there? Is SECAM dead? What about
NTSC-J?


Return to posts index

Tom Wolsky
Re: Tv frequency doesn't matter?
on Jun 7, 2011 at 1:06:34 pm

SECAM is a broadcast system, production was done in PAL. NTSC and PAL are standard definition formats. The only difference in HD formats are frame rates.

All the best,

Tom

Class on Demand DVDs "Complete Training for FCP7," "Basic Training for FCS" and "Final Cut Express Made Easy"
Author: "Final Cut Pro 5 Editing Essentials" and "Final Cut Express 4 Editing Workshop"


Return to posts index

Dave LaRonde
Re: Tv frequency doesn't matter?
on Jun 7, 2011 at 2:54:22 pm

As Tom says, the only difference in HD is frame rate. If you're talking about SD, however, there are differences in field order, H&V resolution AND frame rate.

It's ironic that when it was first proposed in Japan, High-Definition was intended to be the Holy Grail. It was intended as a worldwide television standard. HA! That lasted about five minutes.

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


Return to posts index


Chris Borjis
Re: Tv frequency doesn't matter?
on Jun 7, 2011 at 5:02:19 pm

[Jason Brown] "he told me that no one uses the language NTSC or pal anymore."

maybe in China.....not here.



Return to posts index

Tom Wolsky
Re: Tv frequency doesn't matter?
on Jun 7, 2011 at 5:08:50 pm

Here being?

All the best,

Tom

Class on Demand DVDs "Complete Training for FCP7," "Basic Training for FCS" and "Final Cut Express Made Easy"
Author: "Final Cut Pro 5 Editing Essentials" and "Final Cut Express 4 Editing Workshop"


Return to posts index

Chris Borjis
Re: Tv frequency doesn't matter?
on Jun 8, 2011 at 4:34:05 pm

[Tom Wolsky] "Here being?"

USA

I do PAL work about 2-3 times a year. There is still some demand for it so it matters where I work.



Return to posts index


Scott Sheriff
Re: Tv frequency doesn't matter?
on Jun 8, 2011 at 1:08:03 am

[Jason Brown] "I had someone tell me yesterday from china that all he needed to know was frame rate, 30p or 60i...because I told him NTSC at 30p and he told me that no one uses the language NTSC or pal anymore...just dealing in frame rates.

So while I understand this, because it's either 50 or 25 OR 60 or 30. Are those the only 2 tv systems out there? Is SECAM dead? What about
NTSC-J?"


If we are talking transmission standards:

There are still countries that use NTSC, and are not scheduled to change for the next 3-5 years. And some not at all. Plus in America, low power translators are still free to broadcast in NTSC, and many continue to do so.

NTSC-J is scheduled to go offline in July.

PAL in one flavor or another is one of the most popular TV broadcast standards with well over a hundred countries adopting it. Many PAL users have converted to DVB, and a few to NTSC or ATSC. But still there are countries still using PAL with no plan to convert to anything. Some of them had just converted from SECAM, which is often a cheaper conversion, since SECAM is pretty much a cousin of PAL, and a lot of the gear can be retained and/or modified.

SECAM is not dead. It continues to be used in quite a few places also. Some exclusively, others simulcast in PAL.

As hard as it is for many of us to believe, in many smaller, developing, and 'third world' countries, the population simply doesn't have the disposable income to abandon their current broadcast and reception gear on a whim like we can.

Scott Sheriff
Director
http://www.sstdigitalmedia.com

I have a system, it has stuff in it, and stuff hooked to it. I have a camera, it can record stuff. I read the manuals, and know how to use this stuff and lots of other stuff too.
You should be suitably impressed...


Return to posts index

Jason Brown
Re: Tv frequency doesn't matter?
on Jun 8, 2011 at 1:58:51 am

[Scott Sheriff] "If we are talking transmission standards:"

What if we aren't?

I'm trying to understand what kind of decisions I need to make on production workflow.

As I understand it:

I have the ability to select PAL, NTSC or NTSC-J in my PDW 700. I'm not doing any transmission on my end and I'm going to produce final pieces in NTSC and PAL.

Seems that NTSC-J is really only a factor if transmitting the signal (which I'm not)

So, between NTSC and PAL, is it better to go with more frames and convert down to PAL? Or is it an easier convert up to NTSC?

-Jason


Return to posts index

Scott Sheriff
Re: Tv frequency doesn't matter?
on Jun 8, 2011 at 4:46:15 am

[Jason Brown] "I'm trying to understand what kind of decisions I need to make on production workflow.

As I understand it:

I have the ability to select PAL, NTSC or NTSC-J in my PDW 700. I'm not doing any transmission on my end and I'm going to produce final pieces in NTSC and PAL.

Seems that NTSC-J is really only a factor if transmitting the signal (which I'm not)

So, between NTSC and PAL, is it better to go with more frames and convert down to PAL? Or is it an easier convert up to NTSC?"


More info on what you're trying to do would really be helpful, if you're looking for specifics. Are you having to incorporate footage from other sources? Where are you shooting? How and where are you doing the final distribution?

I'll just make a couple of general observations.

Since we aren't talking xmission, NTSC vs NTSC-J the only real difference is 7.5 ire black for NTSC, and 0 ire black for J. Same frame rate. Most everyone shoots 0 black (and super white) anyway, and fixes the levels in post for whatever the delivery standard is.

Should you acquire/post NTSC or PAL?
With that camera, I would shoot and post in HD, and then downconvert to SD.
For choosing the frame rate, I would work backwards from my required final delivery format, which you should do for every project. For multiple delivery formats, I would work in the local standard of where I was shooting if my footage was going to be the bulk of the project. Or if you have to match a lot of other footage, shoot in a format that the bulk of the other footage is.
Perhaps others might chime in with some options here.

Scott Sheriff
Director
http://www.sstdigitalmedia.com

I have a system, it has stuff in it, and stuff hooked to it. I have a camera, it can record stuff. I read the manuals, and know how to use this stuff and lots of other stuff too.
You should be suitably impressed...


Return to posts index


Dave LaRonde
Re: Tv frequency doesn't matter?
on Jun 8, 2011 at 2:44:55 pm

[Scott Sheriff] "Perhaps others might chime in with some options here."

I don't know if that's necessary. You've out lined a very sensible workflow. It's frustrating there isn't a "one size fits all" workflow, but that's the hand we've been dealt in terms of frame rates.

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


Return to posts index

Jason Brown
Re: Tv frequency doesn't matter?
on Jun 8, 2011 at 7:33:32 pm

[Scott Sheriff] "More info on what you're trying to do would really be helpful"

It's still in the early stages of planning. Shooting and producing pieces that will live most likely exclusively on computers, played back with various media players in potentially US, EU, South America, and Asia. Shot in those various locations, edited here in the US.


[Scott Sheriff] "Are you having to incorporate footage from other sources?"

No, we will acquire all of it.

We don't need to downconvert to SD, everything can live in HD.

Thanks for the great info...I'm learning a lot from this thread, need to get out of my foxhole more often! :)


Return to posts index

walter biscardi
Re: Tv frequency doesn't matter?
on Jun 8, 2011 at 9:12:11 pm

[Jason Brown] "that no one uses the language NTSC or pal anymore...just dealing in frame rates."

Yes they do use NTSC and PAL with HD formats.

1080 / 60i is NTSC. It works with the 60khz electrical cycle in the United States so you don't get an image flicker.

1080i / 50i is PAL. It works with the 50khz electrical cycle in Europe and will flicker when you watch it on a television in the united states.

720 / 30 and 60 are NTSC.

720 / 25 and 50 are PAL.

As we deliver programming to both the US and Europe, we have to deal with NTSC to PAL conversion as a regular course of business and yes, the formats are still referred to as PAL and NTSC.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author, Chef.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

Blog Twitter Facebook


Return to posts index

Chris Borjis
Re: Tv frequency doesn't matter?
on Jun 8, 2011 at 10:58:24 pm

[walter biscardi] "will flicker when you watch it on a television in the united states."

when I was in Australia last year, the tv flickered anyways. It was very mild and barely noticed, but it was there. PAL TV playing PAL Signal and it flickered.



Return to posts index

Gareth Randall
Re: Tv frequency doesn't matter?
on Jun 9, 2011 at 11:33:01 am

[walter biscardi] "As we deliver programming to both the US and Europe, we have to deal with NTSC to PAL conversion as a regular course of business and yes, the formats are still referred to as PAL and NTSC."
Seriously? HD formats are referred to as PAL and NTSC?

In my experience working in British TV, the terms "PAL" and "NTSC" are *only* used to describe SD video. I've never heard 1080i60 referred to as "NTSC", nor 1080i50 as "PAL" and I'd never expect to.



Return to posts index

Jason Brown
Re: Tv frequency doesn't matter?
on Jun 9, 2011 at 12:00:53 pm

This is the root of the question I'm asking...is pal and NTSC only used to reference SD video?


Return to posts index

Tom Wolsky
Re: Tv frequency doesn't matter?
on Jun 9, 2011 at 12:06:36 pm

It should be, though it is often used to describe a frame rate. You even see it in camera manufacturer specification sheets.

All the best,

Tom

Class on Demand DVDs "Complete Training for FCP7," "Basic Training for FCS" and "Final Cut Express Made Easy"
Author: "Final Cut Pro 5 Editing Essentials" and "Final Cut Express 4 Editing Workshop"


Return to posts index

Paul Dickin
Re: Tv frequency doesn't matter?
on Jun 9, 2011 at 12:07:27 pm

Hi
Yes. The labels only apply to standard def (= interlaced) composite video.

On an HD camera or other HD video device/deck, the SD composite-out monitoring socket could also be labeled like this.



Return to posts index

Rafael Amador
Re: Tv frequency doesn't matter?
on Jun 9, 2011 at 12:48:53 pm

[Jason Brown] "I had someone tell me yesterday from china that all he needed to know was frame rate, 30p or 60i...because I told him NTSC at 30p and he told me that no one uses the language NTSC or pal anymore...just dealing in frame rates.

So while I understand this, because it's either 50 or 25 OR 60 or 30. Are those the only 2 tv systems out there? Is SECAM dead? What about
NTSC-J?"


The chines guy is fully right and NTSC, PAL and SECAM is what 90% of the world population still watch every night at home.

PAL means "Phase Alternative Line", but here is not "Phase" to alternate in digital video.
PAL can happens only in analog.

SECAM (PAL broadcasted with the color sequentially) happens something similar. Digital has rendered this technology has just unnecessary.

Pros should get the use to frames rates and pro literature shouldn't mention PAL or NTSC when talking on HD other than a kind of geographical reference.

BTW, that NTSC, PAL and SECAM will end up disappearing doesn't means that they are dead. Their heart will beat forever on the Digital HD and in any future video/tv system to come.
If you don't understand those old-fashioned formats, you'll be lost forever.
No revolutions since the old B&W Tv. No way to start from scratches.
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


Return to posts index

Scott Sheriff
Re: Tv frequency doesn't matter?
on Jun 9, 2011 at 11:46:55 pm

[Jason Brown] "This is the root of the question I'm asking...is pal and NTSC only used to reference SD video?"

Technically yes. ATSC is the American digital broadcast standards, NTSC was the SD standards for Audio, Color, B&W and Transmission.

This term has really been 'genericized' like xerox. But instead of a brand name, an acronym has become the general term meaning in this case, some type of North American video, or TV format and/or spec. It seems to be context driven, assuming the person your speaking to knows what the context is.
Nine times out of ten, I would say it is a reference to the frame rate if we are speaking of digital media. NTSC=29.97fps.
I'm guessing people use PAL in the same way to mostly indicate 25fps.
But you have to pay attention. There is still a lot of archive material out there that is SD, and even some places where analog and SD xmission is still going either over the air, or cable.

Scott Sheriff
Director
http://www.sstdigitalmedia.com

I have a system, it has stuff in it, and stuff hooked to it. I have a camera, it can record stuff. I read the manuals, and know how to use this stuff and lots of other stuff too.
You should be suitably impressed...


Return to posts index

Ben Holmes
Re: Tv frequency doesn't matter?
on Jun 9, 2011 at 4:29:40 pm

I still deal with senior production staff every day in broadcast who deal with PAL and NTSC HD all the time. You get bored of saying "1080i50 and 1080i60" - it doesn't roll off the tongue as well. You and Walter are both right in which case - if you're dealing with non-technical staff, which includes management and purchasing for equipment too...

Edit Out Ltd
----------------------------
FCP Editor/Trainer/System Consultant
EVS/VT Supervisor for live broadcast
RED camera transfer/post
Independent Director/Producer

http://www.blackmagic-design.com/community/communitydetails/?UserStoryId=87...


Return to posts index

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
© 2018 CreativeCOW.net All Rights Reserved
[TOP]