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black are too blacks (HD)

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Steve GERGES
black are too blacks (HD)
on May 12, 2011 at 9:42:30 am

Hello, i'm facing a recurring problem with our local tv channel here. My problem is that everytime i do send them QT Clips when i watch them on TV (and on their Barco reference sreen) the blacks are too black.... i don't get my head around it why this is happening.

We are working in FCP in Apple Pro res 422 HQ, i do export in the same format without gamma correction. On my Barco screen everything looks fine (i do have details in the blacks) but as soon as they import it in their Avid system the blacks seem to get crunched :S (they told me something about importing it in 709 or something, i don't know what that means)

For information our Braco is an SD Barco and is hooked to the computer via a Blackmagic Multibridge.... is the problem coming from there !?? Do i get a wrong signal on my barco.... despite the color bars look ok !?

I do send all my clips to Apple Color to check the scopes in the blacks and whites are not off the chart, and for me they look ok...

The only solution i see for the moment is faking the gamma to get a more lighter image than it is now on TV, but i don't think its the best solution.....

Any help greatly appreciated as i should send them new clips until monday....

Cheers and thanks,

Steve.

Steve - Art Director - http://www.remedia.lu


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David Roth Weiss
Re: black are too blacks (HD)
on May 12, 2011 at 11:35:35 am

Please clarify, you said that you're sending your material to Color to check it, but are you actually color correcting in Color, rendering, and sending the results back to FCP?

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


A forum host of Creative COW's Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums. Formerly host of the Apple Final Cut Basics, Indie Film & Documentary, and Film History & Appreciations forums.


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Steve GERGES
Re: black are too blacks (HD)
on May 12, 2011 at 11:37:46 am

yes thats right....

Steve - Art Director - http://www.remedia.lu


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Steve GERGES
Re: black are too blacks (HD)
on May 12, 2011 at 11:38:39 am

and the results look fin in FCP...it's once it's shown on the TV channel that it looks too dark....

Steve - Art Director - http://www.remedia.lu


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David Roth Weiss
Re: black are too blacks (HD)
on May 12, 2011 at 12:09:06 pm

The reason I asked you to clarify about using Color is that it has broadcast safe capabilities, and if it was enabled, then whether the material "looked good," as you keep saying, is actually irrelevant, because the files output from Color would be have to have legal blacks. So, if they are in fact legal coming from Color, then you can narrow your search to just two things, what is happening to your video on export from FCP, or what is happening to it on import to Avid. Does that make sense to you?

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


A forum host of Creative COW's Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums. Formerly host of the Apple Final Cut Basics, Indie Film & Documentary, and Film History & Appreciations forums.


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Steve GERGES
Re: black are too blacks (HD)
on May 12, 2011 at 1:02:08 pm

hello, the broadcast safe in color is enabled....(see atatched image) the exported video from FCP looks the same as the footage in my timeline (coming from color)... i suspect my Barco may not be calibrated right, but i'm unsure on how to do that correctly....



Steve - Art Director - http://www.remedia.lu


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David Roth Weiss
Re: black are too blacks (HD)
on May 12, 2011 at 3:09:56 pm

[Steve GERGES] "the exported video from FCP looks the same as the footage in my timeline (coming from color)... i suspect my Barco may not be calibrated right, but i'm unsure on how to do that correctly...."

Steve,

You keep speaking about how it looks - what I want to know is what the scopes show on the Avid side. If this is a monitor calibration issue that's one thing, if it's a gamma issue with the video files that's a whole different kettle of fish.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


A forum host of Creative COW's Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums. Formerly host of the Apple Final Cut Basics, Indie Film & Documentary, and Film History & Appreciations forums.


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Rafael Amador
Re: black are too blacks (HD)
on May 12, 2011 at 11:44:16 am

The 709 is the standard HD color space. That shouldn't be a problem for a an AVID.
Your issue sounds to me to plain Gamma shift. Nothing about Black Level.
Which system/FCS are you using?
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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Andrew Rendell
Re: black are too blacks (HD)
on May 12, 2011 at 11:48:09 am

Rec.709 is the international standard for HD, scary technical document here: http://www.itu.int/dms_pubrec/itu-r/rec/bt/R-REC-BT.709-5-200204-I!!PDF-E.p...

One important thing is that black level is at 16 and white level is at 235 on an 8bit (0-255) scale. The scopes in Color ought to be right, but it's worth checking how they're set up.

Monitors have to be calibrated regularly for you to be sure that what you see on your monitor is going to match what anyone else sees, so you should check how well your Barco is lined up.

If your monitor and scopes are right, then the problem is probably the settings for how you make the QT.


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Rafael Amador
Re: black are too blacks (HD)
on May 12, 2011 at 12:09:13 pm

Hi andrew,
I agree with you , but as you write this I think may be misleading for some people.
People tends to mistake the "16th level" with the 7.5 IRE and things like that.
[Andrew Rendell] "One important thing is that black level is at 16 and white level is at 235 on an 8bit (0-255) scale. The scopes in Color ought to be right, but it's worth checking how they're set up."

When looking at the FC's Scope, 16, 235, 255, etc (that would be 64, 940 and 1024 when in 10b) are irrelevant.
Set your Black at 0% and your White at 100%.
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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Doug Beal
Re: black are too blacks (HD)
on May 12, 2011 at 1:17:06 pm

So are you monitoring in SD but mastering HD?

Doug Beal
Editor / Engineer
Rock Creative Images
Nashville TN


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Steve GERGES
Re: black are too blacks (HD)
on May 12, 2011 at 1:22:25 pm

Yes i don't have an HD barco to monitor.... the strange thin i do output from the same stuff for Theater and the image looks just fine... its only on TV where i have the blacks getting chopped down :S

Steve - Art Director - http://www.remedia.lu


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Doug Beal
Re: black are too blacks (HD)
on May 12, 2011 at 2:13:30 pm

we have found going to a DS system 1080i proRes 422 is fine we don't use HQ for that. Coming back from the DS we need to live capture or hit tape, the file exchange produces gamma issues that are too much trouble to fool with.
In the case of a Media composer you might want to try DNXHD to them.
Here's were you can get them
http://avid.custkb.com/avid/app/selfservice/search.jsp?DocId=372311&ssdFilt...

They will not mess up your FCP system and there is an uninstall with them

Doug Beal
Editor / Engineer
Rock Creative Images
Nashville TN


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Steve GERGES
Re: black are too blacks (HD)
on May 12, 2011 at 2:42:22 pm

Hi doug, sorry but i don't get it... why should the Avid codecs resolve my problems !??

Steve - Art Director - http://www.remedia.lu


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Andrew Rendell
Re: black are too blacks (HD)
on May 12, 2011 at 2:51:00 pm

[Steve GERGES] "why should the Avid codecs resolve my problems !??"

because if you encode to the Avid codec when you create the QT, it drops into the Avid without the Avid having the chance of doing a level change on import (which it can do).


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Steve GERGES
Re: black are too blacks (HD)
on May 12, 2011 at 3:24:57 pm

ok thanks for the clarification ;) i'll try that too

Steve - Art Director - http://www.remedia.lu


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Doug Beal
Re: black are too blacks (HD)
on May 12, 2011 at 7:26:55 pm

Exactly what Andrew said.. thanks Andrew
db


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