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Weak FCS3 performance after installing new internal HDD

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Ryan Knight
Weak FCS3 performance after installing new internal HDD
on Apr 26, 2011 at 1:20:53 pm

Hey everyone.

I recently installed a Seagate 7200rpm 750GB HDD in my late 2007 white MacBook (2.2 Intel Core 2 Duo, 4GB of RAM) because my stock HDD was on the way out.

Since then, in FCS I can't even playback 1280x720 23.98 ProRes 422 material without FCP aborting playback with that "System too slow" warning, and prior to the upgrade I could edit 1080p h.264 no problem.

I trashed my FCP preferences thinking maybe a setting was changed somewhere "along the surface", but perhaps it's more deeply routed than that. I have the sequence on Safe RT, I dumbed down all the playback settings for frame rate and quality, etc.

Anybody have any insight on what has happened?

Thanks.


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Chris Tompkins
Re: Weak FCS3 performance after installing new internal HDD
on Apr 26, 2011 at 1:29:51 pm

H.264 is NOT an editing codec. You will experience probs. This is mentioned daily here. Yes, I know you had NO problems b/4 with it.

Convert your footage to a codec/format FCP plays nice with. If then, you still have probs then it's probably that new HD install. But try a mov file ProRes.

Chris Tompkins
Video Atlanta LLC


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Ryan Knight
Re: Weak FCS3 performance after installing new internal HDD
on Apr 26, 2011 at 1:40:35 pm

"Since then, in FCS I can't even playback 1280x720 23.98 ProRes 422 material without FCP aborting playback ".

Thanks.


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Jerry Hofmann
Re: Weak FCS3 performance after installing new internal HDD
on Apr 26, 2011 at 2:09:41 pm

You need to be using an external hard drive for playback of your ProRes media. Can't count on an internal to run the app, OS, QuickTime and read your files as well as play the video. A fast FW 800 drive should do the trick.

Jerry

Apple Certified Trainer, Producer, Writer, Director Editor, Gun for Hire and other things. I ski. My Blog: http://blogs.creativecow.net/Jerry-Hofmann

Current DVD:
http://store.creativecow.net/p/81/jerry_hofmanns_final_cut_system_setup

8-Core 3.0 Intel Mac Pro, Dual 2 gig G5, AJA Kona SD, AJA Kona 2, Huge Systems Array UL3D, AJA Io HD, 17" MBP, Matrox MXO2 with MAX - Cinema Displays I have a 22" that I paid 4k for still working. G4 with Kona SD card, and SCSI card.


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Ryan Knight
Re: Weak FCS3 performance after installing new internal HDD
on Apr 26, 2011 at 2:16:27 pm

My MacBook doesn't support FW800.

I'm looking for a solution to fix my problem or tell me what the problem is. I don't want to edit off an external, otherwise I would already be doing so and this thread wouldnt exist.

I'd really like to find out why my system isn't running like it used to, which could easily edit Full HD ProRes media, including 4444, on the stock internal HDD which was a 5400rpm 120GB.


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Jerry Hofmann
Re: Weak FCS3 performance after installing new internal HDD
on Apr 26, 2011 at 2:19:05 pm

You were lucky before? It's not recommended by anybody anywhere to run your media files from your startup disk.

Jerry

Apple Certified Trainer, Producer, Writer, Director Editor, Gun for Hire and other things. I ski. My Blog: http://blogs.creativecow.net/Jerry-Hofmann

Current DVD:
http://store.creativecow.net/p/81/jerry_hofmanns_final_cut_system_setup

8-Core 3.0 Intel Mac Pro, Dual 2 gig G5, AJA Kona SD, AJA Kona 2, Huge Systems Array UL3D, AJA Io HD, 17" MBP, Matrox MXO2 with MAX - Cinema Displays I have a 22" that I paid 4k for still working. G4 with Kona SD card, and SCSI card.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Weak FCS3 performance after installing new internal HDD
on Apr 26, 2011 at 2:49:47 pm

Questions like these are very tough. For the people trying to help you, they are giving you answers you don't want to hear. You just want it to work because it worked before.

Heres some more stuff you wont want you hear, but we are not trying to lead you astray. Mr. Hoffman is exactly right, your boot drive is your boot drive, and that's how it should be. The system you are using is barely qualified. Part of running an NLE is having enough storage. A MacBook with no connectivity isn't the best solution out there, perhaps you should think about an upgrade so that you can connect with external storage.

If that is not an option, consider removing your DVD burner to an external case and putting another hard drive internally. These guys do it:

http://www.mcetech.com/optibay/

If that is not an option because, let me guess, spending exactly zero dollars is what you want to do, I would ask how exactly you upgraded your drive?


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Ryan Knight
Re: Weak FCS3 performance after installing new internal HDD
on Apr 26, 2011 at 3:26:58 pm

I find it hard to believe that prior to the HDD upgrade I simply got "lucky". I was exporting 4K 10-bit DPX sequences from REDCINE-X after doing a one-light, then exporting that sequence out Shake as ProRes 4444 QTs and then cutting in 4444 and doing a CC in Color.

My process: TimeMachine backed up the original internal HDD to Lacie. Mounted the new internal HDD, ran the OS X Snow Leopard install DVD, then restored the new HDD from the TimeMachined back-up on the Lacie. Ran Permission Repair.

You guys are right when you say I'm looking for a cost-free solution. But I am doing so because I installed the new HDD to replace the old one and hope for a bit better performance with reading and writing files. I've heard of the DVD-drive swap-out process, I just didn't think it was possible on a MacBook.


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Weak FCS3 performance after installing new internal HDD
on Apr 26, 2011 at 3:52:14 pm

[Ryan Knight] "I find it hard to believe"

Start believing... Everyone has given you the proper advice.

[Ryan Knight] "My process: TimeMachine backed up the original internal HDD to Lacie."

Another mistake... You should have cloned your system drive. Time Machine backup of the Pro Apps applications does not restore properly. So, you're never going to get things straight without reinstalling from the original FCP disks or cloning from the hard drive you earlier replaced.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


A forum host of Creative COW's Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums. Formerly host of the Apple Final Cut Basics, Indie Film & Documentary, and Film History & Appreciations forums.


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Chris Borjis
Re: Weak FCS3 performance after installing new internal HDD
on Apr 26, 2011 at 4:17:18 pm

[Ryan Knight] "I was exporting 4K 10-bit DPX sequences from REDCINE-X after doing a one-light, then exporting that sequence out Shake as ProRes 4444 QTs and then cutting in 4444 and doing a CC in Color."

That seems nearly impossible with your configuration.

I'm sure apple would love to examine your system.



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Weak FCS3 performance after installing new internal HDD
on Apr 26, 2011 at 7:02:53 pm

Ryan-

First off, your install process is all wrong and that's causing your issues. You should have simply cloned your old drive to the new one. Time Machine is not a good way to install a system for a "professional".
The best way is to stat from scratch new OS install, new application install, the whole 9.

Second, if you are really truly working at these resolutions and frame rates, a single 7200RPM drive is not going to do anything. Nothing. To speed up this workflow. Not until you dump the white macbook. Better read and write time? Come on dude. If you are really truly working at these resolutions and frame rates you are going to need an honest to goodness computer. A brand new 4 core laptop at the very very (very) least, and a low-end desktop at the very middle of the road, and then the fastest desktop on your way to the higher road in desktop/FCP editing. After that you will need an honest to goodness raid and a Rocket.

I know you're not doing full projects at 4k. You are probably taking a few R3d files you have managed to pilfer and trying to come up with a decent workflow on your own time on your own computer. That's cool, gotta test somehow, I use a laptop for that all the time. But since you are coming from a 120GB hard drive, there is absolutely positively no way you are doing this all the time. After you applications, your iPhoto collection and stolen music in your iTunes library, I'd say you probably have about 60GB (or less) left on your hard drive. Considering it takes 120GBs just to turn on a Red camera (I say that half jokingly) and rendering DPX files and ProRes4x4, you will run through 60GBs with a few minutes of raw footage or less. A few more spins of the platter is not going to help with your 4k DPX renders, or your 4k Shake renders, or your 4k ProRes renders. More processors will, however.

Now, go spend some money and get to work. Since you don't want to spend any money, at least learn to install an operating system correctly. Then work on your white macbook and suffer through the long renders. It will do you some good.

Jeremy


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Ryan Knight
Re: Weak FCS3 performance after installing new internal HDD
on Apr 26, 2011 at 7:40:32 pm

So, mount the new HDD, install SL from the DVD and the install Pro Apps frOm the discs and then clone the drives to restore my files?

I thought TimeMachine was the cloning process. What is the cloning process?

Correct, I was working with the r3d's > DPXs for very small clips and very particular in/out points. However, obviously I'll be cutting 1080 ProRes material on the reg.


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Weak FCS3 performance after installing new internal HDD
on Apr 26, 2011 at 8:18:44 pm

[Ryan Knight] "So, mount the new HDD, install SL from the DVD and the install Pro Apps frOm the discs and then clone the drives to restore my files?"

Nope! Either clone or install from the ground up, not both.

Cloning uses SuperDuper or Carbon Copy Cloner to create a bootable clone of your system drive to a new drive or partition. Way different from Time Machine, which is just an automated backup.

The rule of thumb when moving to a larger system drive is: if your smaller system drive was running perfectly, you clone. If it was anything but perfect, you reinstall from scratch.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


A forum host of Creative COW's Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums. Formerly host of the Apple Final Cut Basics, Indie Film & Documentary, and Film History & Appreciations forums.


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Rafael Amador
Re: Weak FCS3 performance after installing new internal HDD
on Apr 26, 2011 at 8:20:21 pm

[Ryan Knight] "I thought TimeMachine was the cloning process. What is the cloning process?"
TimeMachine is very different.
The purpose of TimeMachine is to recover former system configurations, so must keeps many things that may not be in your system HD anymore. TimeMachine works by coping fiiles and folder. The info is organized by the TimeMachine controller.
Cloning works very different. The info is copied as is lied in the disk without regard if that is belong to any kind of file. You just transfer bit by bit and you get a copy of the original by by bit.
Rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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Ryan Knight
Re: Weak FCS3 performance after installing new internal HDD
on Apr 26, 2011 at 8:47:05 pm

Is there a way for me to do this now? Starting again from the original internal HDD?

And then manually copy over some newer files/docs from the upgraded HDD after a successful clone.


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Ryan Knight
Re: Weak FCS3 performance after installing new internal HDD
on Apr 27, 2011 at 1:35:35 pm

Is there a way for me to do this now? Starting again from the original internal HDD?

And then manually copy over some newer files/docs from the upgraded HDD after a successful clone.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Weak FCS3 performance after installing new internal HDD
on Apr 27, 2011 at 1:56:03 pm

Nope. Not unless you had a third drive to temporarily store the newest files.


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Ryan Knight
Re: Weak FCS3 performance after installing new internal HDD
on Apr 27, 2011 at 2:17:02 pm

I have tons of drives, for my laptop and desktop.

So if I copy my newest files from the upgraded internal HDD to an external drive, I can treat my upgraded internal as if there is nothing on it (because I stil have the original, and a drive enclosure).

How can I do the cloning process now then? Remount the original internal HDD to start the cloning process to the upgraded internal HDD?


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Weak FCS3 performance after installing new internal HDD
on Apr 27, 2011 at 2:43:36 pm

I am sure there's a manual that comes with whatever cloning software you chose to use, but basically you boot from your 120GB drive and clone to your new drive.


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Ryan Knight
Re: Weak FCS3 performance after installing new internal HDD
on Apr 27, 2011 at 2:55:54 pm

Looks like I know how I'm spending my afternoon!

Thanks everyone.


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Weak FCS3 performance after installing new internal HDD
on Apr 27, 2011 at 4:32:51 pm

[Ryan Knight] "Looks like I know how I'm spending my afternoon!
"


Don't watch while cloning... It will never finish if you do. And, I assure you, a clone always takes longer than you imagine.

Also, always test the clone afterwards to make sure it does boot - 99% do, but that other 1% will mess you up big time, especially if the clone is your backup or your only working version, if for instance you're going wipe a disk clean for repurposing or updating to new versions of the OS or FCP.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


A forum host of Creative COW's Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums. Formerly host of the Apple Final Cut Basics, Indie Film & Documentary, and Film History & Appreciations forums.


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Stephan Walfridsson
Re: Weak FCS3 performance after installing new internal HDD
on Apr 26, 2011 at 2:48:31 pm

Editing h264 material is less work for the HDD compared to using ProRes. (But a lot more work for the processor.)

How did you perform the disk swap? Did you do a fresh install of the entire system or just clone the old drive?

What kind of results do get if you try using something like AJA's speed test?

And maybe you had the dropped frame warning disabled before and therefore didn't notice if the computer was struggling a bit.

Stephan


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Rafael Amador
Re: Weak FCS3 performance after installing new internal HDD
on Apr 26, 2011 at 5:50:41 pm

Start by checking if is a HD issue.
Run the AJA System Test and see the Read/Write performance.
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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Ryan Knight
Re: Weak FCS3 performance after installing new internal HDD
on Apr 27, 2011 at 8:13:24 pm

Hey guys,

Before starting the Cloning process, I decided to test my system and FCP running off a FW400 Lacie (my MacBook only supports USB 2.0 and FW400).

To repeat quickly, in the past, I was able to edit and color correct with FCS3 on this laptop, before the internal HDD upgrade, 1080p files in various formats, including ProRes and H264.

And now FCP won't playback ProRes or H264 sequences (even at 1280x720!) without failing. BOTH from the boot drive and on my previously successful FW400 drive. Could it be a FCP problem or do you guys still think I did something wrong when upgrading and restoring the new internal HDD?


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Weak FCS3 performance after installing new internal HDD
on Apr 27, 2011 at 8:34:30 pm

I know I'm having a hard time remembering what the cluck is going on, this thread has way too many posts. There's no way we can keep track of what's different now Ryan, since you said you were having problems all along.

I told you before, if everything isn't running perfectly you'll need do a ground-up reinstall, because working off a clone just duplicates any problems on the original system drive.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


A forum host of Creative COW's Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums. Formerly host of the Apple Final Cut Basics, Indie Film & Documentary, and Film History & Appreciations forums.


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Ryan Knight
Re: Weak FCS3 performance after installing new internal HDD
on Apr 27, 2011 at 8:39:59 pm

No, no trouble all along. Only after installing an upgraded HDD and restoring it via TimeMachine.

That drive was working fine; FCP, Color, REDCINE-X, Shake in HD/2K/4K, no problem what so ever!

But now the new one has problems in FCP.

I thought cloning doesn't "bring" problems from an old drive over to the new one. Though there term cloning seems to indicate the opposite.

Perhaps I should format the new drive, complete reinstall of SL and my Pro Apps, and then manually copy over folders and files of projects and docs?


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Weak FCS3 performance after installing new internal HDD
on Apr 27, 2011 at 9:07:20 pm

You are now trying to run your system off an externally booted fw400 drive. this is not going to work very well/fast.

as I said in one of the the first posts, the best most efficient way to start over. Fresh OS, fresh Apps.

But at the very least, you should clone what was your working 120GB drive to your new 500GB drive and install the 500GB drive internally.

If that doesn't work, then start with a fresh install. You can forget about time machine. Seriously.


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Ryan Knight
Re: Weak FCS3 performance after installing new internal HDD
on Apr 27, 2011 at 9:15:19 pm

I am not booting from a FW400.

David recommended not cloning... ?


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Weak FCS3 performance after installing new internal HDD
on Apr 27, 2011 at 9:18:26 pm

[Ryan Knight] "I am not booting from a FW400."

So what does this mean from a few posts ago? You are starting to go down the rabbit hole:

[Ryan Knight] "Before starting the Cloning process, I decided to test my system and FCP running off a FW400 Lacie (my MacBook only supports USB 2.0 and FW400)."

[Ryan Knight] "David recommended not cloning... ?"

He did? I am pretty sure he was one of the first ones to say "clone".


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Weak FCS3 performance after installing new internal HDD
on Apr 27, 2011 at 9:24:37 pm

We're all trying to tell you the same thing Ryan. If you go back in time, not using Time Machine, I told you about cloning, told you what apps to use, and told you not to do it unless your computer was working perfectly.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


A forum host of Creative COW's Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums. Formerly host of the Apple Final Cut Basics, Indie Film & Documentary, and Film History & Appreciations forums.


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Ryan Knight
Re: Weak FCS3 performance after installing new internal HDD
on Apr 27, 2011 at 9:37:00 pm

Ok so I will do the following, because there were some issues with the OS on the original drive, that I seemingly fixed with a fresh install of SL before I TimeMachined it (which I will not do again):

I will not Clone (because of above - just in case).

Format the new 750GB internal HDD.

Fresh install of SL.

Fresh install of Pro Apps.

Manually copy files, doc, projects.


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Weak FCS3 performance after installing new internal HDD
on Apr 27, 2011 at 9:57:55 pm

[Ryan Knight] "Manually copy files, doc, projects."

Ryan,

That all sounds correct.

However, in the future when talking about copying, don't use the term "files" all by itself please; that scares all of us, because we start to think you 're going to try to copy apps, and plugins, etc. You can say data files, or media files, or documents, but the bare word "files" all by itself freaks us out. At least it freaks me out.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


A forum host of Creative COW's Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums. Formerly host of the Apple Final Cut Basics, Indie Film & Documentary, and Film History & Appreciations forums.


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