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Michael Harrington
Old School Storage
on Apr 15, 2011 at 11:44:47 pm

I have a ProMax SATAMAX, I also have a BVW70 and sold my BVW75 with DT heads several years ago. if you know what DT heads are and understand SATAMAX you just might be qualified to answer my question.

The SATAMAX is about 5 years old and set-up with 5-250GB, that was big time 5 years ago. I need big time storage for upcoming projects. I'm working solo and with limited budget so I'm thinking of buying 5 2TB Western Digital Black Cavalier HD from Fry's to populate this old SATAMAX cabinet.

I've talked with ProMAX and the jr. tech, everyone else is at NAB, he couldn't think of any reason it wouldn't work although it's obviously out of warranty. I'l be working on multiple projects with hundreds' of hours of XDCAM EX and ProRes and make sure I keep original files on separate drives.

What say ye, is this crazy talk?

Michael Harrington
Mac Pro, Dual Quad-Core Intel Xeon 2.66 GHz, 12 GB, FCP7, Snow Leopard, ATI Radeon HD 4870, 30-inch Cine Display, 4 - 1TB internal, 1.25TB Esata, Numerous FW 800 external drives, MX02Max, FSI 17" Broadcast Monitor, Black Magic Mini Sync Generator, Mackie 1402 & Event 20/20 monitors.


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Walter Soyka
Re: Old School Storage
on Apr 16, 2011 at 3:06:42 am

[Michael Harrington] "The SATAMAX is about 5 years old and set-up with 5-250GB, that was big time 5 years ago... I'm thinking of buying 5 2TB Western Digital Black Cavalier HD from Fry's to populate this old SATAMAX cabinet."

I would guess that the enclosure would work, but the SATA controller card may need a firmware update -- but that's just an educated guess. I'd ask this question on the Arrays & RAID Set-up forum [link], where you might be able to get a more informed opinion. It might also be worth waiting until the engineers return.


[Michael Harrington] "I also have a BVW70 and sold my BVW75 with DT heads several years ago. if you know what DT heads are and understand SATAMAX you just might be qualified to answer my question."

I refuse to sell my BVW 75, but I haven't turned it on in almost a year...

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Old School Storage
on Apr 16, 2011 at 1:32:16 pm

I'll be frank. Cut and run.

Get yourself some redundancy and more modern hardware.

You can maybe limp the SATAmax along, but you won't get the best out of it. As the drives are now larger, redundancy is even more crucial. That backplane is old and might not accept the full capability of today's hard drives.

It's been a good run, but it might be time to let the ole girl go, or at least let her join the BVW75s of the world as fond and distant memory makers.

Also, hundreds of hours of ProRes is going to require a substantial raid. 8 drives will barely cut it, 16 would be better. I know you said you are "working solo" but can you afford to let all that footage vanish? 200 hours of 1080p23.976 footage is 12TB. And that's just your footage. Doesn't include renders, graphics, conforms and other ancillary media. Plan accordingly.

Jeremy

Jeremy


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Walter Soyka
Re: Old School Storage
on Apr 16, 2011 at 2:48:42 pm

Of course, Jeremy is right on. A new, modern RAID will suit your needs way better than the old SATAMAX.

I think that storage (and sharing) infrastructure is kind of like VTR (and routing) infrastructure used to be. I may only fire up my Beta decks once or twice a year now, but I use and rely on my fast RAID arrays every single day.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Michael Harrington
Re: Old School Storage & Workflow Questions
on Apr 16, 2011 at 3:22:40 pm

Do you have suggestions on best solution for $2500 - $3000 budget, I already have the Stardom controller card I upgraded to a few years ago. What you say makes perfect since, unfortunately I have limited budget and need to limit my equipment investments these days and I know next to nothing about raids.

The past few years I've edited DVD's with 80-hours HDV footage and used ProRes workflow working from 3TB internal, old 1.25GB SataMAX and externals FW800 without incident. This year will be 3 DVD's projects with same amount of footage for each and with 2 of the projects overlapping each other. I've considered working in HDV or XDCAM. My iPhone AJA storage app reports a significant storage savings working @ 1080i30 2-ch audio in HDV 100hr=1.2TB or XDCAM EX 100hr=1.7GB, 100hr ProRes = 7.5TB. Does this sound right and am I asking for trouble working in XDCAM EX or HDV?

These DVD's do not need to be the absolute best quality as they have limited budgets, sales and are for a niche market. Of course I'd like them to be the best they can considering the age ol production budget triangle, pick 2 from 3 choices, Good, Fast, Cheap.

The first project will be shot with 3 Sony EX1, GoPro's and 1 Sony Z1U and net around 60 hours of footage. I'm considering editing in the native XDCAM EX importing GoPro's as XDCAM and converting Z1U depending on how much footage I end up with or decide to use.

The Second project will be a mix of EX1, Z1U, Panasonic P2 and JVC GY-HM700, don't ask why, thats just the way it is. Not sure best approach, ProRes seems to make since here or lots of conversion to HDV?

The 3rd DVD is shot with 3 Sony V1U's HDV and GoPro cameras and I plan to edit in HDV, this project will net around 100-hr's of footage.

I will also be working with an assistant using his laptop so I plan to feed him footage on an external drive. Your thoughts on best affordable storage/raid solution and workflows are appreciated.

Michael Harrington
Mac Pro, Dual Quad-Core Intel Xeon 2.66 GHz, 12 GB, FCP7, Snow Leopard, ATI Radeon HD 4870, 30-inch Cine Display, 4 - 1TB internal, 1.25TB Esata, Numerous FW 800 external drives, MX02Max, FSI 17" Broadcast Monitor, Black Magic Mini Sync Generator, Mackie 1402 & Event 20/20 monitors.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Old School Storage & Workflow Questions
on Apr 16, 2011 at 4:35:00 pm

We have a few of these in both rack and desktop configs. Raid5 built in. Super easy:

http://sonnettech.com/product/fusion400qr5.html


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Michael Harrington
Re: Old School Storage & Workflow Questions
on Apr 16, 2011 at 4:45:18 pm

Thank you, I'll look into these, I'm also reading about G-Technology low cost solution as I explore raids.

Any thoughts about HDV, XDCAM EX workflows and lower storage needs compared to ProRes?

Michael Harrington
Mac Pro, Dual Quad-Core Intel Xeon 2.66 GHz, 12 GB, FCP7, Snow Leopard, ATI Radeon HD 4870, 30-inch Cine Display, 4 - 1TB internal, 1.25TB Esata, Numerous FW 800 external drives, MX02Max, FSI 17" Broadcast Monitor, Black Magic Mini Sync Generator, Mackie 1402 & Event 20/20 monitors.


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walter biscardi
Re: Old School Storage
on Apr 16, 2011 at 5:10:47 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] " I'll be frank. Cut and run.

Get yourself some redundancy and more modern hardware."


Could not agree more. With all the changes in hardware, it's much more than just repopulating an old box with new drives.

In my case, I have a three year old 16TB RAID and about an 18 month old 16TB RAID. I'm about to sell off both and replace the entire system because there have been such great leaps in the underlying hardware to make entire systems run faster.

The spindle speed of the spinning drives is maxed out, they are not going to go any faster. Solid State drives will change that, but until those drop in price to make it economical to go that route, look at Small Tree, Maxx Digital, Dulce, Sonnett and others you see advertised on these forums for new solutions.

The prices are just so incredibly low per TB that it really makes no sense to "hope that this thing works without failing during my upcoming big project."

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author, Chef.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

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Michael Harrington
Re: Old School Storage
on Apr 16, 2011 at 5:35:20 pm

I'm on board with redundancy and updated storage, now I need to figure out which one fits my budget.

Still no comments about my workflow, is working in HDV or XDCAM EX crazy talk?

Michael Harrington
Mac Pro, Dual Quad-Core Intel Xeon 2.66 GHz, 12 GB, FCP7, Snow Leopard, ATI Radeon HD 4870, 30-inch Cine Display, 4 - 1TB internal, 1.25TB Esata, Numerous FW 800 external drives, MX02Max, FSI 17" Broadcast Monitor, Black Magic Mini Sync Generator, Mackie 1402 & Event 20/20 monitors.


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walter biscardi
Re: Old School Storage
on Apr 16, 2011 at 5:44:18 pm

[Michael Harrington] "Still no comments about my workflow, is working in HDV or XDCAM EX crazy talk?"

I don't understand the thinking about keeping HDV and XDCAM EX files on separate drives. No clue why someone would recommend that.

I always recommend folks get out of HDV immediately and convert to ProRes for a smoother workflow through post and color correction. Personally I hate XDCAM and always convert that over to ProRes before editing as well.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author, Chef.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Old School Storage
on Apr 16, 2011 at 8:33:00 pm

I have exactly zero experience with HDV and only minimal with XDCam. The few times I have received hdv I have sent out to be captured as ProRes.

With XDCam, I always edit in a full raster ProRes timeline. The evey first XDCam project I did I tried editing in XDCam and it was horrendous. I switched tom full raster ProRes timelines and it was much easier.

I have seen on this forum that XDCam, large projects and FCP can be difficult. Other people have no problems.


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Michael Brassert
Re: Old School Storage
on Sep 7, 2011 at 12:41:46 am

I have never had a problem with HDV or XDCam as long as I am cutting straight footage. Once I begin adding filters or layers it is all over. FCP crashes continuously. A ProRes timeline and SafeRT helps if you render before playback.



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