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Rafael Amador
Thunderbolt on iMAC?
on Mar 1, 2011 at 6:37:09 pm

What do you think will Apple do?
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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Bret Williams
Re: Thunderbolt on iMAC?
on Mar 1, 2011 at 7:23:27 pm

I think they will put thunderbolt on everything. Especially since they're merging it with their monitor connector. It'll make iMacs great editing machines. But they'll still sell the mac pros because of the processor power and expandability. It's not like I'm going to jump ship and get an imac just because it has thunderbolt. I have an investment in sata gear and drives for awhile.


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Wayne Carey
Re: Thunderbolt on iMAC?
on Mar 1, 2011 at 8:00:09 pm

Well... I can tell you, Brett.

I just bought an iMac for my home system and also to be used an edit system. IT IS AWESOME!!!! I bought the 27" 2.9 Quad Core i7 processor with 4 gig on RAM and 1 gig of video. Man it screams faster than my 2007 Octocore with 8 gig of RAM. Motion is AWESOME. It works in realtime with lots of layers. Render times are almost half of what I'm used to seeing at work.

Yeah... I don't have a true monitoring on it yet but I use the scopes religiously and until I can afford a broadcast monitor and an HDMI to SDI breakout box... I'll just keep using my HDMI flat panel. It's pretty darn close to broadcast.

I just wish I had an ExpressCard slot and another firewire 800 port.

_______________________________

Wayne Carey
Schazam Productions
http://web.mac.com/schazamproductions
schazamproductions@mac.com


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Bret Williams
Re: Thunderbolt on iMAC?
on Mar 1, 2011 at 8:04:57 pm

Oh man I figured. I'm using the old 2007 octocore (dual dual 2ghz) but it still keeps on going. Yes, an i7 would be awesome. But so would a new tower with 12 cores of whatever the heck is the latest processor. It's nice to wait 3-4 years because anything feels like it screams. My plan was to possibly upgrade in December, but with all the new stuff shaking out, I'll try and keep going. But AE CS5 is really not too happy with the old machine. Funny, cuz CS4 and CS3 were snappier. Maybe I'll go post about that in AE forum...


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Mark Petereit
Re: Thunderbolt on iMAC?
on Mar 1, 2011 at 7:52:14 pm

Apple will change the existing mini Displayport to Thunderbolt on all new iMacs.


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Thomas Morter-Laing
Re: Thunderbolt on iMAC?
on Mar 1, 2011 at 9:38:44 pm

For sure they will. I reckon the wait for this was a lot of the reason they didn't implement the express card in the iMacs was because they were waiting for this...
Hopefully it will remove mac pro snobbery which seems to happen as well- the iMac is a perfectly good editing machine as far as specs go. With the ability to connect to hi speed devices, the mac pro only seems to have minor speed advantages. I think there is a strong argument here that apple have even further blurred the line between what is condidered consumer and pro.

:D
Tom Morter-Laing
Freelance Editor
Certified Apple Product Proffessional, 2010
http://www.depictproductions.co.uk

Sony Z5, with Rode NTG2.
iMac 27" intel i7 2.93GHz, 12GB RAM, ATI HD5750 [1GB GDDR5], 2TB Int. SATA with 2TB External HDD; (FW800), with Elgato Turbo H264HD.





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Bob Zelin
Re: Thunderbolt on iMAC?
on Mar 2, 2011 at 1:50:10 am

Mac Pro "snobbery" ? Yea, who needs professionals, and professional equipment. Consumers should be able to do exactly what we do - who needs professionals for anything !

It's posts like this that make me say "that God for RED, 4K, and a new hi end", because when "anyone" can do what we do - guess what - we don't make any money.

Thank God that Thunderbolt can only handle 6 devices (including monitors) - once (and if) they develop hubs and/or switches for Thunderbolt, then Creative Cow may go out of business, as their advertisers will crumble.

Bob Zelin



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andy lewis
Re: Thunderbolt on iMAC?
on Mar 2, 2011 at 2:37:48 am

There may still be good reasons to buy a mac pro but I don't think speed counts as one of them. Unless it's worth your while paying to be at the top end all the time, and upgrading frequently.

If you're buying a top-end mac pro and replacing it every 5 years you might be doing it wrong. You'd get a faster system on average replacing an imac every 2 years.

Exponential curves, innit.
Not that speed per dollar is everything.

Anyway, thunderbolt means I'll never buy me the giant silver toaster and I can't say I'm sad.


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Margus Voll
Re: Thunderbolt on iMAC?
on Mar 2, 2011 at 8:23:03 am

Probably there will be 5 k and 9 k cameras and we still need Mac Pros :) with 64 cores.
I know i do.

I see every day how some people use now canon for jobs that use to use film and editing on laptop.
Yes they can do it but outcome is peace of BS.

Professional experience and talent will not come with cheap gear as we have seen with DV.

There will be just more bad stuff coming out.

Real businesses will still hire Pros i bet.

--

Margus

http://iconstudios.eu


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Thomas Morter-Laing
Re: Thunderbolt on iMAC?
on Mar 2, 2011 at 9:43:59 am

To an extent, I have to say, point proven....
Look folks. Professional tools are just that, a tool, NOT a measure of your worth or talent as a pro. There seems to be too much emphasis here on the latest technology and having the fastest and best. Im sure the film "Meet the Spartans" was edited on top of the line equipment, but it was the most awful pile of crap Ive seen in a while. I also saw a music video edited on a Macbook (not even a pro) which as quoted by a BBC producer) was "pretty much MTV standards". Didnt the director of "Monsters" shoot everything on an EX3? Certainly not a bad camera, but certainly not as much as one could pay. It getting ridiculous. Dont get me wrong, a mac pro top of the line is certainly going to make your life easier, and sure, people will probably take you more seriously if you have top of the line equipment. But equally, saying you need to have top of the line equipment for editing is essentially the same as saying you can't be an editor without either lots of money, or (in this country at least) a few contacts, as well as luck (and skill of course) enough to get into a full time editors position. Basically opinions like this seem to suppress creative talent, and actually there is a lot out there. This is the case for TV really, I mean there was a BBC short called "Crack House" which was filmed on a crud camera and not edited amazingly but the story was such that it got onto TV. So equipment isnt everything, talent is. But yes, I DO concur that editing hollywood features and material for cinema requires something a little higher caliber, although I would say that the top range imac (over £2k, NOT a "consumer" standard price for a computer) can handle this stuff.
I would also like to add that a prestigious media company in London has added a top range iMac for editing to its list, as has an award winning TV production company in Somerset. Both get regular, large commissions for big TV projects and large corporate projects.

:D
Tom Morter-Laing
Freelance Editor
Certified Apple Product Proffessional, 2010
http://www.depictproductions.co.uk

Sony Z5, with Rode NTG2.
iMac 27" intel i7 2.93GHz, 12GB RAM, ATI HD5750 [1GB GDDR5], 2TB Int. SATA with 2TB External HDD; (FW800), with Elgato Turbo H264HD.





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Brad Bussé
Re: Thunderbolt on iMAC?
on Mar 2, 2011 at 11:46:58 pm

The iMac is not currently a perfectly good editing machine. It's fastest i/o port right now is FW800. Even if the current models had TB, they'd still be limited in ability. I do lots of work in After Effects to support my FCP projects, and on a recent project I was using the 2.93 quad i7 iMac w/ top of the line GPU available and 8 GB of RAM. It was extraordinarily slow, and the 8 GB of memory left me with several hundred MB of page outs.


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Paul Jay
Re: Thunderbolt on iMAC?
on Mar 2, 2011 at 2:40:46 pm

Even a Mac Mini Server will get it eventually.

Thunderbolts are go!!


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Alf Hanna
Re: Thunderbolt on iMAC?
on Mar 2, 2011 at 3:39:10 pm

Well Thomas' points are well taken. The iMac seems to be a limited tool for it's expensive price. But i for one am not yet trading in my perfectly fine macpro 8 core just because a shiny new i7 shows up. To be clear, apple is playing catchup with these models as i7s have been in wide (and cheaper) availability in windows/Linux for longer, and yes, they do outperform my Mac in every case, especially rendering output. So good that apple catches up.

However , it's great that apple takes off with Lightspeed ahead of the crowd. I think it's a leap forward for field use. Everyone will be using it in 5 years.

However, if I just bought a limited expansion iMac, I would be pissed if apple didn't offer a cheap upgrade path. You can imagine what the apple marketing discussions were like making that decision. Sadly,the bulk of those users are consumer/prosumer, and likely will be forced to sell their new machines to get the throughput. I doubt many pros would buy the limited iMac. It's really not fish or fowl. I dont know why i would want my monitor built into my desktop. I know it didn't appeal to me (though I consider myself a prosumer). But I am waiting now for a W7 laptop with thunderbolt to run Premiere on in the field!

Alf


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Thomas Morter-Laing
Re: Thunderbolt on iMAC?
on Mar 3, 2011 at 12:15:56 am

"The iMac is not currently a perfectly good editing machine. It's fastest i/o port right now is FW800. Even if the current models had TB, they'd still be limited in ability. I do lots of work in After Effects to support my FCP projects, and on a recent project I was using the 2.93 quad i7 iMac w/ top of the line GPU available and 8 GB of RAM. It was extraordinarily slow, and the 8 GB of memory left me with several hundred MB of page outs."

I totally understand the limitations of the iMac, especially its (annoying) lack of express card and no where near broadcast accurate screen for grading. However, I think to argue they're slow is mute, and wrong. They have the latest 1333 RAM. If 8 isn't enough, put in 16. In terms of speed, the benchmarks are on a par with the previous model upper- spec mac pros. The NEW mac pros have certain technological speed advantages such as quick channel, but for standard use of After Effects, with 16GB Ram and editing onto a separate internal drive connected by esata (im talking about the OS running of an SSD and using the other internal drive as an edit drive), its is DEFINITELY fast enough for even prosumer use.

:D
Tom Morter-Laing
Freelance Editor
Certified Apple Product Proffessional, 2010
http://www.depictproductions.co.uk

Sony Z5, with Rode NTG2.
iMac 27" intel i7 2.93GHz, 12GB RAM, ATI HD5750 [1GB GDDR5], 2TB Int. SATA with 2TB External HDD; (FW800), with Elgato Turbo H264HD.





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Wayne Carey
Re: Thunderbolt on iMAC?
on Mar 3, 2011 at 12:44:38 am

To add to this... I would bet that AfterEffects was not setup properly. My top of the line iMac is faster than my 2007 Octocore 3 ghz with 8 gig of RAM. I, too, have the same iMac as you, but I'm concerned why yours is slow. Mine screams. Motion and AfterEffects are faster than I have ever seen.

Look at your setup of the programs and make sure they are using all the processors possible. Qmaster has to be setup, too.

_______________________________

Wayne Carey
Schazam Productions
http://web.mac.com/schazamproductions
schazamproductions@mac.com


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Wayne Carey
Re: Thunderbolt on iMAC?
on Mar 3, 2011 at 12:53:36 am

Oh... I forgot.

I can also capture HDV to ProRes422 in realtime to a FireWire 800 CalDigit VR drive. And I have my Sony M10U HDV deck connected to the CalDigit VR using a FireWire adapter. It's perfectly fine.

So... Give me something to try since the system isn't viable for professional work. I'll show you something that may just amaze you. By the way... I'm not doing 4k work so it's just fine for my needs.

My point is... Don't bash something because it doesn't fit your needs. Just accept that iMacs are viable for most.

_______________________________

Wayne Carey
Schazam Productions
http://web.mac.com/schazamproductions
schazamproductions@mac.com


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Walter Soyka
Re: Thunderbolt on iMAC?
on Mar 3, 2011 at 2:11:40 am

[Wayne Carey] "To add to this... I would bet that AfterEffects was not setup properly. My top of the line iMac is faster than my 2007 Octocore 3 ghz with 8 gig of RAM. I, too, have the same iMac as you, but I'm concerned why yours is slow. Mine screams. Motion and AfterEffects are faster than I have ever seen."

8GB is nowhere near enough RAM to feed an 8-core machine running After Effects with multiprocessing on, so I'd expect the performance to be poor on that configuration. AE really benefits from 2-4 GB per core with multiprocessing. Since After Effects performance is very dependent on CPU and RAM, a well-configured Mac Pro still runs circles around a well-configured iMac on AE. See http://barefeats.com/imac10c.html for some numbers.


[Wayne Carey] "My point is... Don't bash something because it doesn't fit your needs. Just accept that iMacs are viable for most."

The iMac is certainly a workable machine, especially for offline editorial, but its I/O limitations really do made it totally useless for finishing. No high-speed RAID, no video I/O, no RedRocket, no CUDA, no jumbo packets on the gigabit Ethernet -- these things may not affect everyone, but they are crippling limitations in many workflows.

That said, I certainly understand the appeal of using the most cost-effective tool for the job, and if/when Thunderbolt comes to the iMac and makes high-speed disk access and video I/O possible, the iMac might be worth another look.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Rafael Amador
Re: Thunderbolt on iMAC?
on Mar 3, 2011 at 12:02:08 pm

Is not about which is better, which is faster or which fits me; is about what will Apple will sell us. Is Apple who decide the features/specs, and not around the users needs.
The offer now is too uneven to satisfy nobody.
The difference between both lines is TOO BIG.

The fact is that Mac Pros offers more than the average FC editor needs while iMAC simply doesn't cover the needs of the average FC editor. We are cached in the paradox that, or we buy more than you need or we are dead limited from the first moment.
Makes not sense that the the only in-between option is a MBP17".

I think that Apple have no other solution than to wide the iMAC line, implementing more connectivity and expandability on some models. We may heard soon discussions about iMAC vs iMAC-Pro.
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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Walter Soyka
Re: Thunderbolt on iMAC?
on Mar 4, 2011 at 2:02:45 am

[Rafael Amador] "The fact is that Mac Pros offers more than the average FC editor needs while iMAC simply doesn't cover the needs of the average FC editor."

Perfectly said!


[Rafael Amador] "Is not about which is better, which is faster or which fits me; is about what will Apple will sell us. Is Apple who decide the features/specs, and not around the users needs. The offer now is too uneven to satisfy nobody. The difference between both lines is TOO BIG."

This thread has touched on the expansion limitations of the iMac, but I'd like to point out that the Mac Pro is frustratingly limited, too. I'm hopeful that Apple will expand the capabilities of both the iMac and the Mac Pro lines. Four expansion slots in a workstation is just not enough -- the HP Z800 has seven. It'd be great to see the Mac Pro match that.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Alf Hanna
Re: Thunderbolt on iMAC?
on Mar 5, 2011 at 8:00:30 am

Jeez! I agree with Rafael !!! Yes, there are significant gaps in the apple lineup and adobe and dare I say Sony are fighting for them. I just edited a multi camera shoot on Vegas tonight with no transcoding for either the avchd or 7d footage. Spent four hours earlier today transcding on fop. A waste of time for the budget I was on. The rendering went fine, even with Boris fx.

I also agree with the arguements against the iMac. It should be faster than a 2007 macpro, that's just dog bites man stuff. nothing new with that. New processors beat old...yawn..

Alf


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