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AJA & Avid in Bed

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John Kaley
AJA & Avid in Bed
on Feb 15, 2011 at 9:04:42 pm

FCP, It's do or die now.

AJA Video Systems, a leading manufacturer of professional video interface and conversion solutions, today announced support for Io Express in Avid Media Composer 5.5 and Avid NewsCutter 9.5. AJA Io Express delivers a portable, cost-effective video I/O solution offering high quality HD/SD capture, monitoring and output in Avid Media Composer 5.5.



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Tom Matthies
Re: AJA & Avid in Bed
on Feb 15, 2011 at 9:51:50 pm

Yes, Indeed...

E=MC2+/-2db


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Dave LaRonde
Are they lying there smokin' cigarettes yet?
on Feb 15, 2011 at 9:56:03 pm

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Apparently this announcement leads you to believe that AJA is about to abandon its massive FCP customer base. That ain't happening.

But I will agree that Apple has to do more than issue feel-good phrases about the ProApps. It's time for something substantial.

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Tom Matthies
Re: Are they lying there smokin' cigarettes yet?
on Feb 15, 2011 at 10:22:00 pm

I wouldn't say that AJA is abandoning Apple, but simply spreading it's base out a little wider. If less editors are going with FCP or changing over to a different platform due to Apple's lack of response in the Pro Apps division, who could blame AJA for covering their butts and expanding their market?

E=MC2+/-2db


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Dave LaRonde
Re: Are they lying there smokin' cigarettes yet?
on Feb 15, 2011 at 10:26:35 pm

[Tom Matthies] "...who could blame AJA for covering their butts and expanding their market?"

Not me, that's for sure. Wake up, Apple.....

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Are they lying there smokin' cigarettes yet?
on Feb 15, 2011 at 10:46:03 pm

I don't see why this is such a big deal?

Okay, so AJA finally stepped up to the plate with hardware to compete against the Matrox MXO2 line, and Avid doesn't appear as though they'll hamstring it to keep it from acting as capture device.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


A forum host of Creative COW's Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums. Formerly host of the Apple Final Cut Basics, Indie Film & Documentary, and Film History & Appreciations forums.


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John Heagy
Re: Are they lying there smokin' cigarettes yet?
on Feb 15, 2011 at 11:25:23 pm

Avid has been using Aja's Zena (now Kona) card in the DS for years. Avid most likely wrote their own I/O via the SDK in that case.

John Heagy


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Russell Lasson
Re: AJA & Avid in Bed
on Feb 16, 2011 at 1:13:38 am

[John Kaley] "FCP, It's do or die now."

Exaggeration.

It was do or die for FCP a long time ago :)

Russ

Russell Lasson
Colorist/Digital Cinema Specialist
Color Mill
Salt Lake City, UT
http://www.colormill.net


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Shane Ross
Re: AJA & Avid in Bed
on Feb 16, 2011 at 2:08:13 am

Another gloom and doom post. Of course.

AJA is smart...as Matrox was. The larger the user base, the more money they make. Avid is smart...lure more people back by making the hardware options cheaper. The biggest stumbling block for going to Avid is the price tag on the low end Avid hardware, the MOJO DX. At $8000, with far less capabilities than the highest end FCP card (AJA Kona 3) that is less than HALF of that price...it makes it difficult to justify.

But now, with $1000 hardware that captures and outputs...it makes it very attractive to switch. Avid wins, AJA wins.

But FCP isn't going anywhere. They are working on a new version...they have said this more than once. And it is taking so long because they are most likely doing major things, according to a few very reputable people making very educated guesses. And Apple said they aren't stopping.

Apple is doing...So is Avid. They are just less secret. BUT, Avid still is pretty old code. There are very few plugins made for them because the software is old...based on old old code. There are still many cases where I'd use FCP over Avid. But, now there are more and more reasons I'd use Avid over FCP.

With this hardware now available on both...it makes it a lot easier to use both.

Shane

GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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walter biscardi
Re: AJA & Avid in Bed
on Feb 16, 2011 at 2:57:31 am

[John Kaley] "FCP, It's do or die now."

Um, AJA has been the Avid OEM video board for years now. Where was your doom and gloom post when that first happened? So this is really not a big deal of an announcement.

You cannot use the AJA Kona board with Avid right now. That is only reserved for the AJA OEM board with the Avid DS (it's essentially the AJA Kona board) so they are not abandoning their strategy of overpaying for their own branded hardware. Until that happens, they will continue to not gain back as much market share as they could if the fully opened up the software to 3rd party cards.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author, Chef.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

Register now for our Open House March 5

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Jeremy Garchow
Re: AJA & Avid in Bed
on Feb 16, 2011 at 4:38:01 am

I've said it before, I'll say it again.

I cant wait for Final Cut Awesome.


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Shane Ross
Re: For the record
on Feb 16, 2011 at 3:48:58 am

The IO Express is a low cost solution. If an editor wants uncompresed and all that it demands (large raid), then they need to settle on the larger, beefier hardware.

Shane

GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Scott Sheriff
Re: AJA & Avid in Bed
on Feb 16, 2011 at 4:01:08 am

John,
"FCP, It's do or die now"

I don't know, I'm just not feelin' the vibe. I'm not one of those pining for a new FCP version, or overly worried about what is going on with The Steve. What I have now does what I need it to do. Maybe I'm just to dumb to know what I'm missing...

Scott Sheriff
Director
http://www.sstdigitalmedia.com

I have a system, it has stuff in it, and stuff hooked to it. I have a camera, it can record stuff. I read the manuals, and know how to use this stuff and lots of other stuff too.
You should be suitably impressed...


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Rafael Amador
Re: AJA & Avid in Bed
on Feb 16, 2011 at 5:15:58 am

Whatever they do, the IO line is based on Prores. They won't go to faraway from FC.
Probably AJA is waiting as well the "Final Cut Awesome" as Jeremy call it.
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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Andy Mees
Re: AJA & Avid in Bed
on Feb 16, 2011 at 8:07:44 am

>Whatever they do, the IO line is based on Prores.

not that I'm especially inclined to speculate on this occasion but to be fair theres really only 1 item in AJA's "IO" lineup (albeit the flagship item) that is based on ProRes


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: AJA & Avid in Bed
on Feb 16, 2011 at 1:50:45 pm

This is very true. The ioExpress is codec agnostic.


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David Roth Weiss
Re: AJA & Avid in Bed
on Feb 16, 2011 at 4:48:31 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "The ioExpress is codec agnostic.
"


Except that it can't handle uncompressed HD codecs.

I suspect that's why it's being confused as a ProRes device.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


A forum host of Creative COW's Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums. Formerly host of the Apple Final Cut Basics, Indie Film & Documentary, and Film History & Appreciations forums.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: AJA & Avid in Bed
on Feb 16, 2011 at 4:59:54 pm

[David Roth Weiss] "Except that it can't handle uncompressed HD codecs. "

Certainly not on a laptop, but it can on a desktop (it's PCIe after all). See screen grab here:



Also, you probably aren't going to be working in uncompressed HD on this style of capture device.

Just sayin'.

Jeremy


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David Roth Weiss
Re: AJA & Avid in Bed
on Feb 16, 2011 at 5:35:08 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Certainly not on a laptop, but it can on a desktop (it's PCIe after all). See screen grab here:
"


What's up with their literature and website Jeremy? It sure seems to imply that the device can't handle unc. You might want to mention that to them...

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


A forum host of Creative COW's Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums. Formerly host of the Apple Final Cut Basics, Indie Film & Documentary, and Film History & Appreciations forums.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: AJA & Avid in Bed
on Feb 16, 2011 at 5:41:51 pm

I think it's pretty clear, no? From AJA.com:

"If you work with a wide variety of formats, frame rates and audio/video sources, Io Express provides the connectivity you need. With its small footprint it offers big features, like 10 or 8-bit uncompressed video, HDMI I/O, HD/SD-SDI I/O with 8 channels of embedded audio, analog component video (SD/HD) or composite output, 2-channel unbalanced audio output, and broadcast quality hardware-based down-conversion for flexible post production. The HDMI I/O is v1.3a at 30 bits per pixel, providing ideal support for the very latest 10-bit monitors."

At the bottom of the page, it has some codecs listed, but it says it's for laptop ingest/playout only, as I think this is poised as mainly a mobile device. For a few hundred bucks more and if you have a desktop, I would think someone can get the more fully featured LHi. I will be curious to see just how far Avid supports it, though.

Jeremy


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David Roth Weiss
Re: AJA & Avid in Bed
on Feb 16, 2011 at 5:47:28 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "I think it's pretty clear, no?"

Oops... My mistake! Thanks for clarifying...

I'll delete my earlier message and slink away into my shame.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


A forum host of Creative COW's Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums. Formerly host of the Apple Final Cut Basics, Indie Film & Documentary, and Film History & Appreciations forums.


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Eric Mueller
Re: AJA & Avid in Bed
on Feb 16, 2011 at 9:12:27 pm

I'm with Shane on this development. If the hardware works with MC, FCP (and PP for that matter) then it's easy to switch between applications depending on the project's or client's needs. And with the relatively low pricing of the NLEs, it's not too much of a stretch for most shops to own all three.

I've been on Avid since '97 and have only spent a couple days worth of time on FCP, but that wouldn't keep me from using it if the next release is "awesome" - especially if I could use both on the same $1,000 piece of hardware without dual boots and rewiring I/Os.

FWIW, there's a lot of grumbling in the Avid camp too. There's some new functionality in MC5/5.5 that many longtime users hate. The Avid fanboys are also waiting for the magical 64bit release, and based on the release of MC5.5 yesterday, we'll probably be waiting longer than the FCP camp.

So, as they say, the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence!


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Rafael Amador
Re: AJA & Avid in Bed
on Feb 17, 2011 at 2:01:52 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "[David Roth Weiss] "Except that it can't handle uncompressed HD codecs. "

Certainly not on a laptop, but it can on a desktop (it's PCIe after all). See screen grab here:



Also, you probably aren't going to be working in uncompressed HD on this style of capture device.

Just sayin'."

Sorry but this doesn't tells me much.
You get the same "Easy setups" with ioHD.
And IMO the ioHD is as "Codec agnostic' as the IO-Mini.
Being FW800 based, it can not capture HD 10b Unc, BUT can manage it without problem: Upscaling, Downscaling and cross-conversion.
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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Shane Ross
Re: AJA & Avid in Bed
on Feb 17, 2011 at 2:07:08 am

[Rafael Amador] "And IMO the ioHD is as "Codec agnostic' as the IO-Mini."

I thought that the IOHD ONLY did ProRes. Well, it does do the other formats, but it must decode the ProRes to that format...because internally it is all ProRes.

Shane

GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Rafael Amador
Re: AJA & Avid in Bed
on Feb 17, 2011 at 2:23:40 am

[Shane Ross] "I thought that the IOHD ONLY did ProRes. Well, it does do the other formats, but it must decode the ProRes to that format...because internally it is all ProRes."
Lets say that is optimized to work with FCS on Prores (RT, etc).

"Io HD features full 10-bit, broadcast-quality,
motion-adaptive SD to HD up-conversion, HD to
HD cross-conversion, HD to SD down-conversion,
and HD/SD 12-bit component analog output.
That’s the equivalent of rolling AJA’s standalone
HD D/A converter, HD to SD down-converter, and
our SD to HD up-converter into one convenient,
cost-efficient box. The quality of the AJA Io HD’s
conversions is identical to AJA’s award-winning
stand-alone products, and since all functionality
is hardware-based, this means that it is available
all the time, on digitize or playback without using
CPU processing like software conversions would.
Io HD will address your varied delivery needs with
support for hardware-based 1080-to-720 or 720-to-
1080 crossconversion".

Nothing to do with Prores.
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: AJA & Avid in Bed
on Feb 17, 2011 at 3:00:17 am

I don't think we need to split hairs about information that is readily available to everyone on AJA.com or reading the respective manuals.

ioHD can only capture ProRes in HD (and sometimes dvcpro hd), the ioExpress can capture whatever you want provided your processor and storage is fast enough to handle it. It is codec agnostic, while the ioHD is not.

The ioHD can sort of playback uncompressed HD, but it's a big load on the machine as the transcode to ProRes is done on the fly in software.


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Rafael Amador
Re: AJA & Avid in Bed
on Feb 17, 2011 at 5:44:02 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "The ioHD can sort of playback uncompressed HD, but it's a big load on the machine as the transcode to ProRes is done on the fly in software."
Jeremy,
The ioHD do not convert to Prores by default.
No Prores involved on the processes mentioned before.
The only limit is the FW800 connexion that, obviously, do not allow a full HD Uncompressed stream.
This limits HD Unc on capture and preview (Color).
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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Shane Ross
Re: AJA & Avid in Bed
on Feb 17, 2011 at 6:01:35 am

Sorry Raf, but ProRes is absolutely involved. The IOHD has a built in ProRes encoder...that's why it is able to do what it does. Why you can capture 1080i ProRes using this with a laptop...older laptops too. Because the encoding is handled by the unit, NOT the computer processors. This is why the Matrox MXO2 cannot encode 1080i ProRes on a laptop, nor can the IO Express...well, until these latest laptops came out. Because the computers did the conversion.

But with the IOHD, the encoder is built in, so it does it. But this also means that to work with any other format like DVCPRO HD, it needs to hit the ProRes encoder, then decode that to DVCPRO HD before it sends it out. Or the computer does the decoding... I forget.

Jeremy and I have pretty heavy involvement with AJA...we both manned the booth at various NAB shows and have to know the units well...

Shane

GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: AJA & Avid in Bed
on Feb 17, 2011 at 6:44:43 am

[Rafael Amador] "The ioHD do not convert to Prores by default.
No Prores involved on the processes mentioned before."


Raf. Buddy. I know that its harder and harder to believe me on these forums anymore. I understand, the squeaky wheel gets the grease. Perhaps i should shut up for a while, I agree with that.

But your statement above is just wrong. When dealing with HD footage, the ioHD converts everything to ProRes in hardware and sends it to fcp, and upon playback, everything is converted to ProRes before being sent down the fw800 pipe back to the ioHD. Uncompressed SD is supported, just like the original io. Its just the way it works. It doesn't work with color because color isn't powerful enough to crunch uncompressed down to prores before sending to the ioHD for output, and color supports a multitude of codecs, while the ioHD does not.

At any rate, the ioExpress supports three separate NLEs across two operating systems, and it wont break the bank. Its quite a versatile little machine.



Good luck everyone. Hope you've sharpened your machetes.


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Rafael Amador
Re: AJA & Avid in Bed
on Feb 17, 2011 at 2:07:22 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Raf. Buddy. I know that its harder and harder to believe me on these forums anymore. I understand, the squeaky wheel gets the grease. Perhaps i should shut up for a while, I agree with tha"
Com on, Jeremy.
Please don't say thinks like that.
You know that i trust you very much and I respect your advise because your knowledge is based on the daily practice; but you also know that I'm formed on the old times of the standards, were technical specs of any system were very on the papers.
My lack of understanding is not your fault. I expect AJA clearly stating that "all the internal process is done on Prores". and every input is automatically converted to Prores. Just like that.
Being "Prores Native" tells me nothing.


[Jeremy Garchow] " When dealing with HD footage, the ioHD converts everything to ProRes in hardware and sends it to fcp, and upon playback, everything is converted to ProRes before being sent down the fw800 pipe back to the ioHD."
Again.
You are talking when managing the ioHD from FC.

The ioHD works on "Stand alone' too; Switched-off from FC.
You can use it to convert the 10b Unc HD out of the SDI of a camera to 10b Unc SD.
Do you mean that even in that case there is a Prores intermediate step?
If this is so, the is really crap. That is not an Uncompressed process, and is contradictory with what AJA claims.

Going SDI IN-HD/10b Unc > Prores HD> Downscaling > Prores SD> 10b Unc-SDI OUT, simply makes no sense on a RT process. The only issue with HD/10b Unc is data-rate, no processing power. Any compressed format needs more processing-power than an Uncpmpressed one.

Sorry but I have to stick this again. It seems that nobody has ready or at least understood it.
Up to this the ioHD works internally as a KONA:

"Io HD features full 10-bit, broadcast-quality,
motion-adaptive SD to HD up-conversion, HD to
HD cross-conversion, HD to SD down-conversion,
and HD/SD 12-bit component analog output.
That’s the equivalent of rolling AJA’s standalone
HD D/A converter, HD to SD down-converter, and
our SD to HD up-converter into one convenient,
cost-efficient box. The quality of the AJA Io HD’s
conversions is identical to AJA’s award-winning
stand-alone products.
.".

I trust you Jeremy, and, as Shane points, I know that you are very well connected to the AJA people, so if you just tell me that you know from the AJA people the fact that is "All Prores Inside", I just shut my mouth.
Cheers,
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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Andy Mees
Re: AJA & Avid in Bed
on Feb 17, 2011 at 2:33:46 pm

Hey Rafa,
With the IoHD, ProRes is always used as an intermediate when passing any HD signal to the host computer via FireWire. Other than that, intermediate compression to ProRes is not involved. So for your HD > SD example above then it's not passing through any ProRes compression along the way. I had a really nice email discourse with Jon Thorn at AJA on all of this a couple of years ago and he was impressively patient with my hopelessly dumb questions as I tried to figure out the various signal paths and how and where the ProRes hardware compression was involved, I thoroughly recommend giving him a shout if you have any concerns at all. Always a pleasure to deal with AJA.
Cheers
Andy


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: AJA & Avid in Bed
on Feb 17, 2011 at 2:34:14 pm

[Rafael Amador] "I expect AJA clearly stating that "all the internal process is done on Prores". and every input is automatically converted to Prores. Just like that."

I see where you are coming from now and I think something is getting lost in translation as the literature does say this, it's just not in as few words. Hopefully, I can clarify.

The internal signal processing is done uncompressed, but when the signal is prepared for FCP and wrapped to Quicktime/sent to FCP, it is then encoded to ProRes in hardware. Putting the ioHD in stand alone mode is totally different than capturing and encoding video for an NLE. Stand alone mode is simply hardware 'passthrough'. The signal comes in to hardware and gets converted/processed spit back out through AJA hardware. That side of the ioHD works in standard uncompressed video and doesn't touch ProRes as there's really not a lot of encoding/decoding, just signal processing.

It when you add FCP to the mix, that's when ProRes comes in to play. The encoding/decoding of ProRes to/from Quicktime and the actual processing of the video from the baseband video ports are two separate functions.

Jeremy


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Rafael Amador
Re: AJA & Avid in Bed
on Feb 17, 2011 at 4:00:59 pm

Hi Andy & Jeremy,
That was my idea.
I think that that kind of basic information should be clear on the specs of any pro system.
Cheers,
rafael
PS: I swear I'm not a "discussing-for-all" guy.
I need answers; and answers that match my poor base-knowledge.
If they do not match, then there is something wrong on the answer, or on my base-knowledge.
Something to fix; so I start with my questions and discussions again.
No other way to learn :-)

http://www.nagavideo.com


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Ron Pestes
Re: AJA & Avid in Bed
on Feb 16, 2011 at 5:18:12 am

Yeah, I'm kind of between a rock and a hard place about the new FC when it comes out. I want all the bells and whistles but I have a 2008 MacBook Pro so I doubt it will handle it. I only have a duo core processor and 4 gig of RAM. Real time effects in multiple layers will still probably be glacialy slow. I still want it though!

Apple Certified Master Pro FCS 2
Sony EX-3
MacBook Pro


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Paul Jay
Re: AJA & Avid in Bed
on Feb 16, 2011 at 11:19:13 am

The next version is gonna be awesome... :P


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Paul Jay
Re: AJA & Avid in Bed
on Feb 16, 2011 at 11:34:16 am

a 64 bit FCP will be able to use both MacBook Pro cores. You will be fine.


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