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Edit to Tape off by approx 10 seconds

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Greg Nicholson
Edit to Tape off by approx 10 seconds
on Feb 15, 2011 at 2:12:16 am

OSX 10.6.4
2.66 GHz Quad Core Intel Xeon
8 GB 1066 MHz DDR3
FCP 7.0.2
Blackmagicdesign I/O Decklink HD Extreme 3D
SDI
AES
9 pin deck control

Sony HDCAM Deck HDW-500

Sequence Settings
1920x1080i
Pixel Aspect Ratio Square
Field Dom Upper
Edit Timebase 29.97
Compressor Apple ProRes 422
DF

Problem: TC on FCP sequence does not layback to tape with audio and video. I've blacked my master tape using DF starting at 00:58:50;00. I've tried LTC only, VITC only and "Auto" My video with bars starts at 00:59:08;02 with the program starting at 01:00:00;00. Everything seems to get shifted forward approx ten seconds to early on the tape. (ie Rather than main program starting at 01:00:00;00 it starts at 00:59:49;00 approx)

My IN point on the Edit to Tape window reflects the exact IN point in the sequence. I have an OUT point in the sequence as well.

I've never had this problem when laying off HD projects to the HDCAM deck when handling NDF HD footage. So I'm thinking this problem is related to DF.

Thoughts anyone? I'll try to respond quickly with any questions or clarifications. Thanks so much!


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Edit to Tape off by approx 10 seconds
on Feb 15, 2011 at 3:44:31 am

Are you dragging your sequence from the browser to the "assemble" overlay of the ETT window?

Are you laying off the whole sequence? If so you don't need in and out points on your sequence, you just need to set the in point you want to start on the tape to the in point of the ett window.

Are you using the proper easy setup that matches your footage/timeline/frame rate?


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Greg Nicholson
Re: Edit to Tape off by approx 10 seconds
on Feb 15, 2011 at 2:01:45 pm

I drop my sequence in the Viewer window and I click the Assemble button in the ETT window.

Yes, I'm laying off the entire sequence. I will try removing the OUT point from my seq. and respond promptly with whether that worked.

Clip info:
MPEG-4 (Quicktime)
138 Mbps 1920*1080 (16x9) at 29.97 fps

Sequence settings:
See Above

Audio/Video Settings
Video Playback: Blackmagic HD 1080i 59.94 - 8 bit 1920x1080

Thanks!

OSX 10.6.4
2.66 GHz Quad Core Intel Xeon
8 GB 1066 MHz DDR3
FCP 7.0.2
Blackmagicdesign I/O Decklink HD Extreme 3D
SDI
AES
9 pin deck control


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Edit to Tape off by approx 10 seconds
on Feb 15, 2011 at 2:06:26 pm

Bingo. Can't layoff an mpeg4 file in Fcp. Convert the file to an Fcp friendly edit codec (prores et al) and I'm sure you'll have less problems.

Also you should drag the sequence from the browser to the ETT assemble overlay once you get your timeline conformed to a better codec.


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Greg Nicholson
Re: Edit to Tape off by approx 10 seconds
on Feb 15, 2011 at 2:29:47 pm

I hope it's as easy as that... but when I drop the clip in the timeline and FCP asks if I want to change the seq settings to match the clip, I say Yes and the sequence codec settings change to ProRes 422.

The MPEG-4 information I got from a little program called Media Info that can look at clips and tell the user info on the clip. I'm not sure how accurate it is because the guy I got the clip from told me it was ProRes and FCP's behavior seem to reflect that.

thoughts?

thanks.

OSX 10.6.4
2.66 GHz Quad Core Intel Xeon
8 GB 1066 MHz DDR3
FCP 7.0.2
Blackmagicdesign I/O Decklink HD Extreme 3D
SDI
AES
9 pin deck control


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Greg Nicholson
Re: Edit to Tape off by approx 10 seconds
on Feb 15, 2011 at 2:35:31 pm

The Item Properties in FCP tell me the clip is: Compressor: Apple ProRes 422 Vid Rate 29.97

Since my output is 59.97 is the frame rate the issue? Even though I have a 1080i59.97 seq and output, the sequence still says 29.97 Edit Timebase. This confuses me...

OSX 10.6.4
2.66 GHz Quad Core Intel Xeon
8 GB 1066 MHz DDR3
FCP 7.0.2
Blackmagicdesign I/O Decklink HD Extreme 3D
SDI
AES
9 pin deck control


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Greg Nicholson
Re: Edit to Tape off by approx 10 seconds
on Feb 15, 2011 at 3:06:47 pm

oh, because 1080i59.94 is actually 60 FIELDS (approx) and the frame rate is still 30 (approx)

correct?

OSX 10.6.4
2.66 GHz Quad Core Intel Xeon
8 GB 1066 MHz DDR3
FCP 7.0.2
Blackmagicdesign I/O Decklink HD Extreme 3D
SDI
AES
9 pin deck control


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Edit to Tape off by approx 10 seconds
on Feb 15, 2011 at 4:45:44 pm

[Greg Nicholson] "oh, because 1080i59.94 is actually 60 FIELDS (approx) and the frame rate is still 30 (approx)"

Yes.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Edit to Tape off by approx 10 seconds
on Feb 15, 2011 at 4:45:21 pm

This is pretty basic stuff.

[Greg Nicholson] "Since my output is 59.97 is the frame rate the issue?"

59.94 in 1080i terms is 59.94 FIELDS per second, 29.97 FRAMES per second. Your timeline should be 29.97 not 59.94. If in fact your timeline is ProRes and your clips is ProRes, then you should select a Blackmagic 1080i easy setup by hitting control-q, make a new sequence, drop the clip in.

Open the Edit to tape window.

Mark the in point of where you want the tape to start in the ETT window which in your case is 59 minutes, I think. This is provided you have black and coded the tape properly.

Double check the settings by going to the device settings tab and make sure a 1080i and proper device control is set.

DRAG THE TIMELINE FROM THE BROWSER TO THE ETT WINDOW AND PLACE IT ON THE ASSEMBLE OVERLAY THAT COMES UP.

Sorry, I think that's the third time I've said that now.

The deck should then begin cueing to a 3 second preroll (00:58:57:00), preroll, then start the assemble at 59 minutes.

Jeremy


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Phil Seymour
Re: Edit to Tape off by approx 10 seconds
on Feb 15, 2011 at 6:04:45 pm

This is a broadcast deck so you should have a 5 second pre roll on it for the servo to lock. Also set the reference to input.

Phil


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Edit to Tape off by approx 10 seconds
on Feb 15, 2011 at 6:11:10 pm

[Phil Seymour] "This is a broadcast deck so you should have a 5 second pre roll on it for the servo to lock. "

But you will have to modify the preset to achieve that. Let's see if we can get past step 1 first.

Jeremy


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Greg Nicholson
Re: Edit to Tape off by approx 10 seconds
on Feb 15, 2011 at 9:45:46 pm

Well I tried that and it didn't help so I didn't bother telling you.

Additionally, according to the Final Cut manual both are acceptable.
"To perform the assemble edit, do one of the following:

Drag your clip or sequence from the Viewer or Browser to the Assemble section of the Edit Overlay.

Open your clip or sequence in the Viewer, then click the Assemble Edit button.


Drag the clip or sequence to the Assemble Edit button."

So anyway... solved the issue. I changed Servo Ref from External to Input video, increased the PreRoll from 3 to 10 seconds. These sets dramatically improved the timing issues. At this point we were only off by about 12 frames. So I adjusted the playback offset in the Device Control Preset editor.
Just did two 57 minute layoffs and they are 100% frame accurate. Success!

OSX 10.6.4
2.66 GHz Quad Core Intel Xeon
8 GB 1066 MHz DDR3
FCP 7.0.2
Blackmagicdesign I/O Decklink HD Extreme 3D
SDI
AES
9 pin deck control


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Edit to Tape off by approx 10 seconds
on Feb 15, 2011 at 9:47:27 pm

There you go. Nice work.

12 frames seems like a pretty incredible offset, but hey it's working.


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Greg Nicholson
Re: Edit to Tape off by approx 10 seconds
on Feb 15, 2011 at 9:48:22 pm

Oh, just saw your post Phil. Thanks. Changing the servo ref was definitely central.

OSX 10.6.4
2.66 GHz Quad Core Intel Xeon
8 GB 1066 MHz DDR3
FCP 7.0.2
Blackmagicdesign I/O Decklink HD Extreme 3D
SDI
AES
9 pin deck control


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Joseph Owens
Re: Edit to Tape off by approx 10 seconds
on Feb 15, 2011 at 10:09:10 pm

There are those who will roll their eyes when they see me joining the discussion. I hate the ETT module with a passion and fury so purple that no colorist on earth will ever be able to fix it.

I wonder if your "miss" factor varies with pre-roll? Would it be different with a 10-, 5-, or 3- second preroll? In any event, though, I did experience a pre-roll oriented issue with Log&Capture about a year ago. To save some time, and because there were issues with broken time code on a source tape, I changed the pre-roll duration to something shorter -- I can't recall at the moment if it was much less than 3 seconds. What resulted is that about every eighth clip contained audio that was many frames out of sync. I suspect that it was a problem with ProRes, and its lead-time compression window. But everything with Final Cut is a deep, dark and un-addressed mystery.

Frankly, gamers get better service and support for their toys.
jPo

You mean "Old Ben"? Ben Kenobi?


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Edit to Tape off by approx 10 seconds
on Feb 15, 2011 at 10:19:12 pm

[Joseph Owens] "There are those who will roll their eyes when they see me joining the discussion. I hate the ETT module with a passion and fury so purple that no colorist on earth will ever be able to fix it."

Deck control in FCP has always been a bit tenuous, whether it's capture or layoff. It's most definitely not a finely tuned machine. The manual does explain stuff pretty well, especially the calibration. For layoffs, genlock does help.

Broken tc sucks with no room for preroll, and FCP falls short on overcoming those hurdles. Fact of tape life on planet FCP.

[Joseph Owens] "Frankly, gamers get better service and support for their toys."

Aren't we all gamers of some fashion?


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John Heagy
Re: Edit to Tape off by approx 10 seconds
on Feb 15, 2011 at 11:48:10 pm

[Joseph Owens] " I hate the ETT module with a passion and fury so purple that no colorist on earth will ever be able to fix it."

I'm with you there Joseph!

It's our number one request to Apple every year... fix realtime I/O!!

Unfortunately Apples sees realtime I/O as a technology that is on the decline. We all know how Apple deals with such technology...

Apple's RS-422 approach is brute force, basically over polling in an attempt to get in sync. If FCP would use the sync signal available to them, via a Kona card for example, they would be dead on every time. The problem is that would require Apple to use Aja's API which of course would not work on Black Magic etc...

What I hope happens, with the next release of FCP, is that Apple offers an I/O plug-in API so Aja or BM can write their own ETT and Capture plugins that can talk direct to the metal, including the Ref input.

Here's hoping...

John Heagy


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