FORUMS: list search recent posts

isis 5000

COW Forums : Apple Final Cut Pro Legacy

<< PREVIOUS   •   FAQ   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
Jason Watkins
isis 5000
on Feb 11, 2011 at 6:11:43 pm

Hello, anyone have experience or heard anything about using ISIS for shared storage with FCP?


Return to posts index

Jason Myres
Re: isis 5000
on Feb 11, 2011 at 6:58:03 pm

5000 or 7000? We had an opportunity to test Final Cut with a 5000 for a short period, and without MC5 it basically becomes a volume-level locking SAN. There's no project sharing like you have with Media Composer, and also a 50 MB/s quality of service limitation that seems to be in place to ensure minimum use-able bandwidth to each client.

After talking with some Avid techs, we had heard there may be a workaround, but we never made it that far. Another thing to be aware of is a maximum file-count limitation (10 million, I think), that may seem like a lot, but I know a lot of Avid admins that spend a fair amount of time culling files to stay under it. The file count does not go up if you add additional storage. Again though, this is just my brief experience with one.

If you've got a couple editors running MC5, a 5000 can be a great all-in-one solution to get them sharing, though. If using FCP, it may be good to look at an SNS Evo, Editshare, or Facilis.

If you are looking at connecting FCP users to a 7000, while I believe its do-able, it might be better to look at getting your FCP users on an Xsan and then using re-sharing or some sort intermediate NAS to pass files back and forth.

JM


Return to posts index

Michael Kammes
Re: isis 5000
on Feb 11, 2011 at 7:21:43 pm

Shared storage with ISIS 5000 is good - it works. It is not volume level locking, it is file level locking. Provided you have write privileges, users can R/W all day long to the same workspace.

With a single 1GB pipe toa client station, we are getting speeds exceeding 100MB/s. Once you start adding on users, or not using supported configs, this drops. The correct NIC on a PC is paramount (onboard doesn't cut it). You can also do a bonded 1GB, and we have seen speeds around 180MB/s. On each chassis, you can expect "around" 300MB/s total.

FCP has no inherent ability for project sharing (read: simultaneous, like Avid). Thus, ISIS500 does not add that. The Editshare SAN solution has the ability to work around this.

Expect a 15-30% performance (throughput) hit with FCP on Unity, and about the same (if not less) on an ISIS.

Also expect a several hundred thousand dollar difference between ISIS 5000 and ISIS 7000. 7000 is enterprise.

~Michael



.: michael kammes mpse
.: senior applications editor . post workflow consultant
.: audio specialist . act fcp . acsr
.: michaelkammes.com

Hear me pontificate: Speaking Schedule .


Return to posts index


Jason Myres
Re: isis 5000
on Feb 11, 2011 at 7:28:04 pm

I apologize, we were testing on a Unity MediaNet via fibre channel. So my comments apply to that, and not a ISIS 5000. That is also what some of our customers were using with regard to the file count limitation. Sorry about that.

http://www.avid.com/US/products/Unity-MediaNetwork/

JM


Return to posts index

Jason Watkins
Re: isis 5000
on Feb 11, 2011 at 10:13:36 pm

Thanks for the help. Yeah, just looking at the 5000. When you talk about the correct NIC, are you saying the second port on a Mac Pro isn't good enough? Also, why is there a 30% drop in FCP performance?


Return to posts index

Michael Kammes
Re: isis 5000
on Feb 11, 2011 at 10:36:57 pm

The NIC onboard the Mac (1 or 2) are 100% supported by Avid. Chalk it up to better parts, or chalk it up to no surprises with 1 CPU manufacturer...regardless, they are supported.

Avid's Media Composer and FCP write data differently. ISIS is an Avid product, thus, ISIS is designed with Media Composer in mind...i.e. optimized to use it. Avid opened up to allow (and support) FCP, but cannot alter their product to suit a 3rd party product, I would imagine.

Your throughput may vary. This is ballpark, and not to be taken as a definite number. In fact, Avid even states a higher number:

"Final Cut Pro editing systems require 30% to 50% more bandwidth than Avid Media Composer at similar resolutions."

See the doc here, scroll to page 18:
http://avid.custkb.com/avid/app/selfservice/search.jsp?DocId=348209&Hilite=...

Cut and paste of the intro:
---------------
The following list characterizes the setup guidelines for your Final Cut Pro client with Avid Unity ISIS:

• You need to stay in line with the general client parameters specified for all Avid Unity ISIS Macintosh clients. The following are the specific hardware details used in the Avid testing:

-Platforms — Mac Pro (early 2008) “Harpertown” Dual Quad-Core 3.0 or 3.2 GHz.

-Operating system — Mac OS 10.6.2 and later.

-Avid Unity ISIS — Ethernet connection using the built-in network ports on the Macintosh system.

• Final Cut Pro editing software was characterized with the AJA KONA hardware. The complete Apple Studio 2 bundle was installed.

• Verification tests on Apple Color and Sound Track Pro were run to verify Push - Pull capabilities.

• Final Cut Pro media should be in its own mirrored Storage Group (RAID Storage Groups not qualified). Including:
-Scratch disks
-Project files

Do not mix Final Cut Pro clients and Avid editor clients within the same Storage Group.

When Final Cut Pro clients are sharing the same Storage Group as Avid editing clients,
the Final Cut Pro clients have poor performance.

• Final Cut Pro clients are supported in ISIS Zones 1 and Zone 2 (not Zone 3).

• The Avid Unity ISIS Client Manager preference settings follow the same guidelines as for Avid editors. The default setting is set to Medium Resolution (limited to resolutions that draw 16 MB/s or less). Use the High Resolution setting when working with High Definition media (resolutions that draw higher than 16 MB/s). For data rate specifications, see the data in the following tables.

• Final Cut Pro editing systems require 30% to 50% more bandwidth than Avid Media Composer at similar resolutions. • The number of Final Cut Pro clients supported in a Storage Group are about 1/2 the number of Avid Media Composer clients at similar resolutions.

• Digidesign Pro Tools software was not tested with Final Cut Pro clients.

Scaling the Avid Unity ISIS environment is based on the amount of bandwidth an ISIS engine (or several engines) is able to provide. A single ISIS engine is comprised of 16 storage blades and can produce upwards of 200 MB/s aggregate throughput by serving multiple Final Cut Pro clients simultaneously.

Scaling an Avid Unity ISIS beyond a single engine effectively scales in a linear fashion based on a single engines performance. To calculate the rating for your ISIS system, use the following table to define an engine’s capabilities based on the chunk size selected when creating a Storage Group and the resolutions in use.


~Michael



.: michael kammes mpse
.: senior applications editor . post workflow consultant
.: audio specialist . act fcp . acsr
.: michaelkammes.com

Hear me pontificate: Speaking Schedule .


Return to posts index


Jason Watkins
Re: isis 5000
on Feb 11, 2011 at 10:55:45 pm

Thank you Michael. Very helpful, Jason


Return to posts index

Jason Watkins
Re: isis 5000
on Feb 11, 2011 at 11:58:07 pm

Hello Michael, just want to make sure I am reading this correctly. On page 21 of the doc, the last row of the last chart has the data rate as 45 MB/sec. They mean 45 Mb/sec correct? If it is 45Mb/sec, then it says playing 1 stream of that codec requires 11MB or 88Mb/sec. Roughly twice the data rate of the codec itself.

Lastly, how does FCP count streams on playout? If you are only monitoring V4 (no PIP or effects), and you have 3 loaded video tracks below that, is that 1 stream or 4?


Return to posts index

Michael Kammes
Re: isis 5000
on Feb 12, 2011 at 12:16:09 am

To tell you the truth, I didn't find the chart easily followable.

Pro Res 422 Proxy 1080p/30, runs at 5.63 MB/s, which equals 45.03Mb/s. That means someone hit the shift key while hitting "B", and they meant to say MegaBITs, not MegaBYTES.

Look at Page 1. RAID is spelled wrong too, so perhaps proofing the doc wasn't doe so well, eh?

Each concurrent visible video track with media is a stream. Thus, a video track with 3 PIPs (when all are visible), are 4 streams.

~Michael



.: michael kammes mpse
.: senior applications editor . post workflow consultant
.: audio specialist . act fcp . acsr
.: michaelkammes.com

Hear me pontificate: Speaking Schedule .


Return to posts index


Mark Raudonis
Re: isis 5000
on Feb 12, 2011 at 4:42:01 pm

Get an X-SAN!


Mark



Return to posts index

Michael Kammes
Re: isis 5000
on Feb 12, 2011 at 4:45:58 pm

Oh Mark, trying to stir the pot ;)

~M



.: michael kammes mpse
.: senior applications editor . post workflow consultant
.: audio specialist . act fcp . acsr
.: michaelkammes.com

Hear me pontificate: Speaking Schedule .


Return to posts index

Mark Raudonis
Re: isis 5000
on Feb 12, 2011 at 7:03:33 pm

Not really.

Listen to all those "provisional specs". Sounds like they're willing to enable FCP to work ONLY well enough to compare UNfavourably to Avid. Why bother? If you're starting anew, get a system that's optimized for FCP, not one that will just "tolerate" it.

Now, don't even get me started on the "EOL" of Apple's X-Serve!

Mark



Return to posts index


Jason Watkins
Re: isis 5000
on Feb 14, 2011 at 10:51:49 pm

Turns out the performance guide we were looking at was for the ISIS7000. The performance guide for the 5000 looks a lot better. Here it is for those who are interested:

http://avid.custkb.com/avid/app/selfservice/search.jsp?DocId=384751&ssdF


Return to posts index

Michael Kammes
Re: isis 5000
on Feb 14, 2011 at 11:00:05 pm

I *thought* that was odd.

As I said, I only ever saw a 15-50% performance hit, and the 5000 guide backs it up. I just cut and pasted the wrong doc - sorry!

~Michael



.: michael kammes mpse
.: senior applications editor . post workflow consultant
.: audio specialist . act fcp . acsr
.: michaelkammes.com
.: twitter: @michaelkammes
.: facebook: /mkammes

Hear me pontificate: Speaking Schedule .


Return to posts index

Pierre Sudre
Re: isis 5000
on Feb 25, 2013 at 5:40:33 pm

Hi,
I'm sorry to dig up this old thread.

I have a similar question regarding the capabilty of the ISIS 5000 and Final Cut Pro (7.0.3)

We're editing a fashion show with 14 Cameras (I'm ingesting with multiples Macpros and MovieREC in Apple Prores HQ 25PsF --22 to 24MB/Sec--)
Everything is recorded in realtime into a shared LAN (3xISIS 5000 32TB).

The fashion show is 20minutes long. (~30GB)
Overall size of the fashion show 14x30 = 420GB

This is edited by 4 editors. They do not edit in multicamera mode, it would be useless for the kind of editing we're doing.
They make timelines with the 14 cameras (from V1 to V14) and activate/deactivate clips constantly. Nevertheless, Final Cut only read the last activated track.
This works fine with an Lacie External hard drive connected with a FireWire 800 cable. In a shared lan, not so much.

I have others films to edit mostly shot with 5D Mk III converted in Prores HQ 25PsF as well, simplier timelines, 2 to 4 video tracks (11 Macpro in total), overall 2TB of shared data (everything Apple Prores HQ 25PsF).

We did our math (maybe not the right way?), and it should work fine.
I was told a single Isis 500 could handle 300MB/s read/write.
Even with the 30% performance loss rule because it's Final Cut and not avid, 3 ISIS should be more than enough.

Yet, the editors kept getting the "RT unlimited" error saying basically than the disk speed is too slow. Even if the Isis was displaying 200 to 300 MB/SEC in READING Max total.

Some MacPros where setup in double attachment mode (not sure if it's the right technical term), basically, they were connected with not one but two RJ45/Ethernet cable (180MB/Sec read/write) to improve speed, and still they somehow got the RT error message.

So do you think it's wise to add more ISIS ? Or simply Final Cut is not made shared storage lan.

This is getting me crazy, I want so bad to switch to AVID/MC6, but my editors are not ready yet...

Thanks for your help.

Pierre


Return to posts index


Michael Kammes
Re: isis 5000
on Feb 25, 2013 at 6:39:48 pm

Yes, an ISIS will spit out 300MB/s per chassis - max.

Have you used Path Diag (free diagnostic on every ISIS install) to test transfer rates from the ISIS to your machine?

Do that, see how fast your connection is. Also, if you are bonding the connections, you have that set within the ISIS client app, yes?

Are you going through an Avid sanctioned Ethernet switch - or direct connect?

Have you reset / deleted your preferences in FCP since adding ISIS?

Is your OS and ISIS client app at the right versions for ISIS?

I would reset FCP preferences, start a new FCP project and put 1 clip on a video track. See if that plays. Then add another - do a manual picture in picture. See if that plays. Keep doing that until FCP throws up an error. Count how many tracks and see if the total tracks data rate is more than the path diag says.

FCP on ISIS 5000 is VERY common, so this should work just fine.

~Michael



.: michael kammes mpse
.: senior technology & workflow consultant
.: audio specialist . act fcp . acsr
.: michaelkammes.com
.: twitter: @michaelkammes
.: facebook: /mkammes

Hear me pontificate: Speaking Schedule .


Return to posts index

Pierre Sudre
Re: isis 5000
on Feb 25, 2013 at 7:07:15 pm

Thank you Michael for replying so fast.

We used Path Diag, and the speed were fine, 100MB/sec read write for single attachment (1 RJ45/ethernet cable) and 180MB/sec read write for double attachment (2xRJ45/ethernet cable).
I double checked with BlackMagicSpeedTest and the results were similar.

All the Final Cut Pro 7.0.3 were fresh install. I tried reseting the settings as well, same result.

By the way, I forgot to mention it, I don't own this equipment (the 3xIsis), I'm renting it to a post house. Since we're renting it again next week, I want to see what I else I could to improve the workflow.
The post house is telling me this setup works fine in Apple ProRes -LT for sure, Apple ProRes (normal) should work. But for Apple ProRes -HQ they don't know why.

Are you going through an Avid sanctioned Ethernet switch - or direct connect? ---> It was an ethernet switch, I don't know if it was sanctionned by Avid or not, I'm going to ask.

Is your OS and ISIS client app at the right versions for ISIS? ---> It should have been, I'm going to ask.

I would reset FCP preferences, start a new FCP project and put 1 clip on a video track. See if that plays. Then add another - do a manual picture in picture. See if that plays. Keep doing that until FCP throws up an error. Count how many tracks and see if the total tracks data rate is more than the path diag says. ---> I'll try.

During my initial tests, I put several heavy timelines with multiples video tracks (up to 10) on 8 computers, playing at the same time. It was working fine at first, but after an hour, the RT message started to appear, and the only option was to reboot the computer, sometimes, emptying the PRAM helped, but it's a variable solution, to a problem that should or should work, Period. So I don't get what's wrong, but again, it's not MY setup, but still I wan't to understand.

Thanks again for your help. I'll get back to you with more answers.


Return to posts index

Michael Kammes
Re: isis 5000
on Feb 25, 2013 at 7:23:01 pm

If you are getting 100MB/s & 180MB/s...that's really good. I normally only see that on simple configs with low user count.

When everyone is hitting the ISIS, and you view the ISIS webpage, what are you seeing in terms of user performance? There is a sidebar on the left that shows throughput per user (Read and Write)

The 14 tracks sound a bit scary, but I presume if you are toggling all but one of them off and on, you should have no issue. The PiP test is a basic one and one that many installers use to real world test multiple streams at once.

Are you SURE the limitation is the ISIS bandwidth and not the FCP machine?



.: michael kammes mpse
.: senior technology & workflow consultant
.: audio specialist . act fcp . acsr
.: michaelkammes.com
.: twitter: @michaelkammes
.: facebook: /mkammes

Hear me pontificate: Speaking Schedule .


Return to posts index

Pierre Sudre
Re: isis 5000
on Feb 27, 2013 at 12:55:09 am

Hi again,
I've got more answers :

Are you going through an Avid sanctioned Ethernet switch - or direct connect?
---> The switch was a switch Force 10 25SN sanctioned by Avid

(From release note 4.1

• Force10® Networks S25N switch (qualified in the ISIS 5000 environment) containing 24
1-Gb ports on the front, and two slots on the back for 10 Gb XFP modules or 12 Gb stacking
modules. The 12 Gb stacking modules allow for interconnecting two S25N switches when
more than 24 client connections are in use.)


Is your OS and ISIS client app at the right versions for ISIS?
---> The OS was 10.6.8 and the ISIS Client Isis 5000 was version 4.1 which should be right.

When everyone is hitting the ISIS, and you view the ISIS webpage, what are you seeing in terms of user performance? There is a sidebar on the left that shows throughput per user (Read and Write)
---> The Isis was displaying 200 to 300 MB/SEC in READING Max total. I can not remember what was the user performance for a single computer, I'll have to check that again as soon as the setup is ready next week.

The 14 tracks sound a bit scary, but I presume if you are toggling all but one of them off and on, you should have no issue. The PiP test is a basic one and one that many installers use to real world test multiple streams at once.
---> Scary indeed, but again, it works fine with an external FW800 single harddrive, I'll try the PiP test as well.

Are you SURE the limitation is the ISIS bandwidth and not the FCP machine?
---> The MacPros were 4.1 (Nehalem) with 8GB Memory.

Thanks for your help.


Return to posts index

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
© 2017 CreativeCOW.net All Rights Reserved
[TOP]