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Anybody using Prores LT for grading/mastering?

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Wayne Marx
Anybody using Prores LT for grading/mastering?
on Dec 28, 2010 at 2:08:51 pm

Hi,

I'm about to start cutting a documentary with about 10 trillion hours of DSLR footage, [well, it feels like that much anyway].

I'd like to be able to keep all the footage on one primary 1TB hard drive - and I can only do that if I transcode to LT [Prores SQ is, of course, around 4 times the file size].

So the question is, is LT good enough for grading and mastering?

I know the white paper recommends at least SQ, but I wanted to hear from the battle-tested among you for your thoughts.

I'll likely be doing a lot of Colorista II & Mojo grading [no Color or DaVinci] - and the output will be DVD and PBS [but I guess we should't rule out Blu-Ray and HD Broadcast].

Thanks in advance,

Wayne


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Anybody using Prores LT for grading/mastering?
on Dec 28, 2010 at 3:34:54 pm

There are two modes of thought on this:

1) DSLR video is already highly compressed, so why not use LT.
2) DSLR video is already highly compressed, so why use LT.

Personally, I believe in ProRes 422 and never use LT. Hard drives are cheap.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


A forum host of Creative COW's Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums. Formerly host of the Apple Final Cut Basics, Indie Film & Documentary, and Film History & Appreciations forums.


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Shane Ross
Re: Anybody using Prores LT for grading/mastering?
on Dec 28, 2010 at 5:48:20 pm

Grading for WHAT? Web? Broadcast? DVD? My rule of thumb is LT for stuff going to DVD or the web. ProRes 422 for broadcast. HQ if the original format is 10-bit (Like AVCIntra).

If your DSLR footage is going to DVD...LT. If for broadcast, use ProRes 422.

Shane

GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Anybody using Prores LT for grading/mastering?
on Dec 28, 2010 at 8:00:48 pm

[Shane Ross] "Grading for WHAT? Web? Broadcast? DVD? My rule of thumb is LT for stuff going to DVD or the web. ProRes 422 for broadcast. HQ if the original format is 10-bit (Like AVCIntra).

If your DSLR footage is going to DVD...LT. If for broadcast, use ProRes 422."


While I agree with you in principle as I almost always do Shane, my own philosophy is to proceed into the woods armed for bear at all times, even if I'm just looking for deer.

If I should happen upon a deer, I'll be good to go, but just in case that big old bear shows up, my "arse" is covered.

Likewise, if the producer lands a distribution deal and we're suddenly heading for TV, all I gotta do is pull the trigger once (okay, push the button) and we're heading for the airwaves.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


A forum host of Creative COW's Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums. Formerly host of the Apple Final Cut Basics, Indie Film & Documentary, and Film History & Appreciations forums.


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walter biscardi
Re: Anybody using Prores LT for grading/mastering?
on Dec 28, 2010 at 5:49:40 pm

[Wayne Marx] "I'd like to be able to keep all the footage on one primary 1TB hard drive - and I can only do that if I transcode to LT [Prores SQ is, of course, around 4 times the file size]."

Really? A single 1TB drive for "10 trillion hours" of material? Please do yourself a favor and get a multi-drive array or stripe a couple of drives inside your Mac Pro as a RAID.

Here's the thing, you get that 1TB drive about 60% full, it's going to start slowing down. 70%, slower. 80% starting to dog. 90% crash city.

And then there's all your renders which means that will take up exactly the same amount of storage that's in your timeline.

If you have a lot of footage, over 75 to 100 hours or more, then step up to a multi-drive array. WeibeTech makes a sweet RTX series from 1 to 8 drives in a single chassis. You can go down to Best Buy, Fry's or whatever electronics store is handy to pick up multiple 1 or 2TB SATA drives (Fry's had 2TB for $109 each a few weeks ago). Slap them into the RTX and RAID them together.

Presto, 2 to 8TB RAID and you'll have plenty of storage plus plenty of speed for your edit. My rule of thumb is estimate how much storage you will need for a project and then at least double it. I recently completed a documentary project with 250 hours of material and used up almost an entire 8TB Array between the edit, After Effects Renders, Color Renders, Motion Renders and Graphics files.

And for the edit, go ProRes. You say PBS but not HD Broadcast? PBS is Broadcast so I'm assuming it's going to be broadcast somewhere. So don't drop to LT just to save space. ProRes is small as it is.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author, Chef.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

"Foul Water, Fiery Serpent" Winner, Best Documentary, LA Reel Film Festival...

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Wayne Marx
Re: Anybody using Prores LT for grading/mastering?
on Dec 28, 2010 at 7:36:19 pm

Hi Gents,

Thanks so much for taking the time to respond.

I think it's clear which direction I should be heading in and I appreciate the advice.

All the best,

Wayne


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Anybody using Prores LT for grading/mastering?
on Dec 29, 2010 at 12:17:25 am

You can always off-line in LT or Proxy as well and online your final timeline to ProRes.

Jeremy


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Anybody using Prores LT for grading/mastering?
on Dec 29, 2010 at 12:34:45 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "You can always off-line in LT or Proxy as well and online your final timeline to ProRes."

Jeremy,

Keep your gun loaded, we all know there are bears in Chicago...

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


A forum host of Creative COW's Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums. Formerly host of the Apple Final Cut Basics, Indie Film & Documentary, and Film History & Appreciations forums.


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walter biscardi
Re: Anybody using Prores LT for grading/mastering?
on Dec 29, 2010 at 1:26:43 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "You can always off-line in LT or Proxy as well and online your final timeline to ProRes."

This is very true, but then you have to deal with the whole Media Manager deal which is still clunky at best for offline / online workflow. Great for archiving projects, but I would not use it for offline / online. Just get a few more drives.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author, Chef.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

"Foul Water, Fiery Serpent" Winner, Best Documentary, LA Reel Film Festival...

Blog Twitter Facebook


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Anybody using Prores LT for grading/mastering?
on Dec 29, 2010 at 2:20:24 am

Just sayin' it's an option guys. Sheesh.

You can choose to or not. And you don't need a gun.

If you have 1TB drive and you need to get to work today, it's an option.

Jeremy


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Anybody using Prores LT for grading/mastering?
on Dec 29, 2010 at 2:46:25 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "You can choose to or not. And you don't need a gun."

I absolutely, positively detest and frown upon unnecessary online/offline workflows.

I had to do it when it was necessary, and today it's not in almost every case.

My philosophy is, anything that introduces unnecessary variables into my completed work is just extra work waiting to happen. No thank you! Doing the work just once is fine for me...

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


A forum host of Creative COW's Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums. Formerly host of the Apple Final Cut Basics, Indie Film & Documentary, and Film History & Appreciations forums.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Anybody using Prores LT for grading/mastering?
on Dec 29, 2010 at 3:00:48 am

Yeah, fine. I'm not here to refute, but every seems to be refuting.

Try it with a Red project. It's necessary.

If there's 3 trillion hours of footage, it's necessary.

If it's a 9 camera mutlicam, it's necessary.

It's really not that bad.

Renders are smaller, footage is easier to move around, and over all it's generally lighter.

An offline/online workflow is still completely valid, even in today's age.

If anything it's becoming more and more valid with all the crazy digital formats as the recording formats become more and more complex.

100 hours of ProRes 1080p24 material with 2 channels of audio is 6TBs. the same in ProResProxy is 1.9TBs, LT is 4.2TBs.

If you have 1 trillion hours, you better move in to Google's data center. 1 trillion hours of ProRes is 6043.16 EBs. Exabytes. ProRes Proxy takes that down to a cool 1944.92 Exabytes.

Good luck and don't knock it till you try it.

Jeremy


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Anybody using Prores LT for grading/mastering?
on Dec 29, 2010 at 3:16:55 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "Try it with a Red project. It's necessary.

If there's 3 trillion hours of footage, it's necessary.

If it's a 9 camera mutlicam, it's necessary."


Oh absolutely!!! There are times when it is necessary, but when it's not why do it?

It's these guys thinking that offline/online workflows are less costly than buying a $70 hard drive are really what I'm aiming at with my bear gun Jeremy.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


A forum host of Creative COW's Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums. Formerly host of the Apple Final Cut Basics, Indie Film & Documentary, and Film History & Appreciations forums.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Anybody using Prores LT for grading/mastering?
on Dec 29, 2010 at 3:39:24 am

[David Roth Weiss] "There are times when it is necessary, but when it's not why do it?"

This is my entire point, in the original posters case, it might be/could be necessary.

Thanks for clearing that up.

Jeremy


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Wayne Marx
Re: Anybody using Prores LT for grading/mastering?
on Dec 30, 2010 at 1:55:21 pm

Once again,

Thanks for the input gents - most helpful

Wayne


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