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A stack of white plates

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Lisa Koza
A stack of white plates
on Dec 16, 2010 at 6:54:03 pm

Hi, I am editing a cooking show, and seem to be unable to remove flickering/field issues.

Shot in HDV 1080 60i, editing in HDV. Fields set to None, seemed to give me the least issues. Exported out each Sequence as a self contained quicktime, current settings. Dropped into NTSC 720x480 4:3 timeline, kept the fields at None (looked the best). Tried Prores in there somewhere, and didn't notice anything better.

Looks fine on computer. Print to tape, and played on my 57 inch sony projection HDTV, and the stack of white plates ripple with movement. Mini blinds, rippled. I am Several days past my delivery date, and really need to find an answer.

Right now I'm trying to export out a Quicktime in ProRes, with the Deinterlace box checked. It's a 30 min show, with lots of color correcting in it, and wow, my render times are out of this world.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: A stack of white plates
on Dec 16, 2010 at 7:29:21 pm

[Lisa Koza] "Shot in HDV 1080 60i, editing in HDV. Fields set to None"

This is incorrect.

Keep it interlaced if you shot interlaced. For Sd too.


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Lisa Koza
Re: A stack of white plates
on Dec 16, 2010 at 7:41:30 pm

I know and I agree! But I had it as upper, and then was dropping the HDV sequence into a SD Lower timelime, and it was horrible. What should the final timeline be at? Lower or Upper, or even None? I also have some SD lower field commercials to incorporate into the cut of the show, so I have mixed formats to deal with.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: A stack of white plates
on Dec 16, 2010 at 7:43:34 pm

[Lisa Koza] "But I had it as upper, and then was dropping the HDV sequence into a SD Lower timelime, and it was horrible."

HDV should be upper. The Sd timeline should be lower. If you need to use a shift fields filter.

Or better yet, take the HDV master out to Compressor and make an Sd LFF version there.

Make sure the input fields are set to upper and output fields set to lower.

Jeremy


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Lisa Koza
Re: A stack of white plates
on Dec 17, 2010 at 12:57:46 am

Jeremy, I sent out a minute test from my HDV sequence, which was re-set to upper, out to compressor, used Apple ProRes 422, NTSC - CCIR 601, Field Lower, 720X480 16:9. Dropped that into an SD sequence, 3:2, anamorphic unchecked, NTSC - CCIR 601, ProRes 422 compressor. Looks like crap! Not only are the white plates still doing their thing, now everyone's eyes looks like their shut. What am I doing wrong?? Should I have it 4:3? I see interlaced lines all over this on my screen.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: A stack of white plates
on Dec 17, 2010 at 1:01:01 am

Should be 720x486 for ProRes,

See here:
http://forums.creativecow.net/thread/8/1114458

Do you need 4x3 center cut or letterbox?


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Lisa Koza
Re: A stack of white plates
on Dec 17, 2010 at 1:08:39 am

Letterbox. So 480, which should be 486, could be the culprit for their eyes?


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: A stack of white plates
on Dec 17, 2010 at 1:15:03 am

Can you post a screengrab?

Do you have a proper broadcast monitor?


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Lisa Koza
Re: A stack of white plates
on Dec 17, 2010 at 1:21:20 am

No Monitor. Testing it by printing to tape and playing it on my TV, using my cam. Freelance Editor here, not the big time. I have a 57 inch HDTV (projection, not LCD) and an older tube TV, digital, ect, does wide, but a little older. It of course looks better on the latter.

At one point, in the beginning, my footage looked OK, it was before I started nesting my HDV sequences into my SD timeline. Does nesting ever do anything, in a bad way?

This is a cooking show with Mario Andretti in it, he's local to where I live, and well, of course all jobs should look their best, but.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: A stack of white plates
on Dec 17, 2010 at 1:30:41 am

I can't see what you're seeing.

You're saying it looks good on the sd monitor and bad on the hd?

The hd monitor is probably doing a bad job of scaling.


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Lisa Koza
Re: A stack of white plates
on Dec 17, 2010 at 1:38:56 am

Here is a little clip. This was done with dropping my HDV footage right into an SD sequence.

https://files.me.com/lisakoza/a4d1ic.mov


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: A stack of white plates
on Dec 17, 2010 at 1:48:25 am

[Lisa Koza] "Here is a little clip. This was done with dropping my HDV footage right into an SD sequence."

But it's recompressed to h264.

You need to upload a few seconds of full resolution/codec footage. Did you read that other thread at all? It's like deja vu.

Jeremy


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Lisa Koza
Re: A stack of white plates
on Dec 17, 2010 at 1:58:05 am

oh crap, sent the wrong one. I need a vodka, and fast. I'm so sorry.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: A stack of white plates
on Dec 17, 2010 at 1:59:11 am

No worries. Just zip a few seconds of a full codec file.

I'll take a gin and tonic, please.


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Lisa Koza
Re: A stack of white plates
on Dec 17, 2010 at 2:45:44 am

Vodka cranberry is where I'm at.

1412_andretti.mov.zip


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: A stack of white plates
on Dec 17, 2010 at 2:57:35 am

ok, now you have to do me a favor. upload 2 seconds of raw footage.

Make a new sequence, drop an HD clip in to it from your Browser, hit yes when FCp asks if you want to accept the sequence settings, then export 2 seconds of it. Zip it, then upload.

Are you trying to make a ProRes or DV movie? Did you try using Compressor yet?


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Lisa Koza
Re: A stack of white plates
on Dec 17, 2010 at 3:07:59 am

It was a 4 cam shoot, all HDV Sony's however. This is from just one cam.

1413_test.mov.zip

thank you again, gin on it's way! :)


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: A stack of white plates
on Dec 17, 2010 at 3:26:16 am

OK. That cli is definitely straight up 1080i.

This is what you need to do. In your HD sequence, make sure the sequence is set to Upper Field First.

Render.

Export a reference movie (File > Export > Quicktime Movie, leave recompress and leave self contained UNchecked).

Open Compressor.

Bring the movie in to Compressor.

Now. more questions.

What do you need, do you need a center cut dv movie? Anamorphic Prores movie? What is your master supposed to be?

Jeremy


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Lisa Koza
Re: A stack of white plates
on Dec 17, 2010 at 3:33:13 am

I need to deliver SD in a 4:3 to a local TV station, they didn't specify format. I have several sections to this 28:30 min show. I have 4 sequences in HD, the guts of the show (the clip is an example that I sent you). Then I have a bunch of graphics for sponsored by ads, they are a mishmash of HD and SD. Then I have a few commercials from other companies, all in SD. So, my timeline to go OUT I made in SD, NTSC DV/DVCPRO. I decided to stay away from ProRes after you mentioned that 486 business.

So, if I export out, then into compressor......it needs to play happy with all the other formats. I've been editing for over 4 years now, but have never had a mix format project like this. A great learning experience!


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: A stack of white plates
on Dec 17, 2010 at 3:34:32 am

is everything 4x3 safe?

You don' t know if you're delivering tape or file?


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Lisa Koza
Re: A stack of white plates
on Dec 17, 2010 at 3:44:43 am

Delivering Tape.

Everything is Title Safe. Going letterbox in a 4:3.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: A stack of white plates
on Dec 17, 2010 at 3:53:46 am

OK, so you are letter boxing. to DV tape? Digibeta?

Look, it's going to be virtually impossible to help you virtually with all those different kinds of media.

Once you tell me the tape format, I'll help you with a Compressor setting and you can see if you like it.

If not, you will have to get someone who can see what they are doing and help you online it.

Jeremy


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Lisa Koza
Re: A stack of white plates
on Dec 17, 2010 at 3:58:53 am

The station is happy with just a mini DV. So, what you're sayin here is that this IS a wacky set up, huh? I just need them all to work together....but the most important is the show footage.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: A stack of white plates
on Dec 17, 2010 at 4:10:49 am

[Lisa Koza] "So, what you're sayin here is that this IS a wacky set up, huh?"

It's just a mixed bag. A person would need to be there to sort it all out. It would require a true online, which might mean recapturing/converting some footage so it all matched correctly. Since we can't really do that over the internet without staying up all night/day, try this:

So, after you export the movie like I told you and bring in to Compressor,

In the presets, find the DV NTSC option (Apple > Other Workflows > Advanced Format Conversions > Standard Definition) and drag that setting to your clip in the batch window.

Now click on the thumbnail and you should see the a/v attributes come up in the inspector. Make sure the native field dominance is set to upper.

Now click back on the setting bar in the batch window (right next to the clip thumbnail). In the inspector find the frame controls button. Turn them on by hitting the little gear.

Set your Resize filter to best, Your output fields to bottom first, deinterlace to fast, rate conversion to fast.

Then find the geometry button.

Make sure the frame size is set to 720x480 and pixel aspect ratio is set to NTSC 601/DV.

In the Padding section, make sure it's set to 16x9, 1.78:1.

Set a destination in the settings bar, name it, and hit submit. Then wait.

When it's done, post a few seconds of that final movie.

Jeremy


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Lisa Koza
Re: A stack of white plates
on Dec 17, 2010 at 11:54:21 am

thank you again, for such detailed instructions, you rock! Here is a clip that went thru that process. I still see interlacing issues on my computer screen however, which actually, I use a 26inch 1080p HDTV as a monitor. And I see a jagged edge on my 57 inch in playback. What do you see? It does play smooth though.

1415_outtest.mov.zip


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: A stack of white plates
on Dec 17, 2010 at 2:22:39 pm

I'll have to check when I get ot the office on a proper monitor, but the prelim looks good.

[Lisa Koza] " I still see interlacing issues on my computer screen however, which actually, I use a 26inch 1080p HDTV as a monitor. "

Meaning out of your DVI or something? Of course you are going to see interlace issues, you aren't using an accurate monitoring setup.

Also, the goal wasn't to deinterlace this movie, was it? Sd is usually interlaced. The material was shot interlaced. I don't see a super compelling reason to deinterlace here.

If you watched this on a nomral setp (that is an SD TV) I'm sure it'd look great. I will double check later today.

Jeremy


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: A stack of white plates
on Dec 17, 2010 at 5:10:52 pm

The DV clip you made looks like dv to me. If you watch it on an old tube monitor, it looks fine. I have an Sd tube monitor that I routed to it, and this clip looks normal. I can't say the same for the rest of your piece. :)

Jeremy


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gary adcock
Re: A stack of white plates WHOA....
on Dec 17, 2010 at 2:58:02 pm

[Lisa Koza] "Testing it by printing to tape and playing it on my TV, using my cam. Freelance Editor here, not the big time. I have a 57 inch HDTV (projection, not LCD) and an older tube TV, digital, ect, does wide, but a little older. It of course looks better on the latter."


Lisa,

you are looking at a down converted HD > SD image that is being upconverted (god knows how) on a 57" HD projection TV?

You wonder why it looks bad?
You took HD and made it SD then converted it back to HD. Basically the fine detail needed to hold onto the edges of the plates has been lost in the Downconversion

You are working on an older (assumed) Projection HDTV that is taking your 726 pixel wide image and enlarging it to be 1920 pixels and displaying it on a 57 in wide display?

Projection TV's have notoriously bad conversion tools built , one 4 yr old Sony unit a friend of mine has cannot even do a 720 > < 1080 conversion properly.

gary adcock
Studio37

Post and Production Workflow Consultant
Production and Post Stereographer
Chicago, IL

http://blogs.creativecow.net/24640



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Lisa Koza
Re: A stack of white plates WHOA....
on Dec 17, 2010 at 3:35:16 pm

Well at one point, during a review, I had it looking pretty great actually. But come to think of it, I might have been reviewing it off a DVD that I burned. It was still an SD sequence that went into DVDSP, but it looked much better.

Now I've been doing it with my cam, print to tape, and just hookin it up with a composite cable. Am I to guess that's even worse? I just want it to broadcast proper, and look good.


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gary adcock
Re: A stack of white plates WHOA....
on Dec 17, 2010 at 3:52:52 pm

[Lisa Koza] " Am I to guess that's even worse? I just want it to broadcast proper, and look good."

Composite is going to be the lowest quality signal out of your camera, so no you are not helping yourself any, I bet somewhere there is a component connection on the camera - that would be better.

gary adcock
Studio37

Post and Production Workflow Consultant
Production and Post Stereographer
Chicago, IL

http://blogs.creativecow.net/24640



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John Pale
Re: A stack of white plates WHOA....
on Dec 17, 2010 at 7:04:44 pm

Not trying to be a smart ass, but you really need to hire someone with a technical background to help you with your workflow.

You are doing nearly everything wrong, and trying to sort it all out online in a blizzard of posts (with incomplete info) is next to impossible.


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