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HDV capture,timeline,broadcast information please

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paul roubicek
HDV capture,timeline,broadcast information please
on Dec 7, 2010 at 9:21:12 am

information

l am editing on FCP7 in-house and also in the field for international News.

l film the footage in Sony FX1 HDV 1080i60 (NTSC)

l have read all the threads and still need information to get me in the right place with HDV (so many options) and best editing time-line

l need the footage for HD Broadcast/HD WEB and DVD want to keep it HD

Questions

Q. what is the best way to work with HDV when log and capture
HDV or Proress 422 HQ, DVCPRO-HD? why if possible

Q what is the best time-line to use when editing with the HDV clips once CAPTURED? (though depends on your answer as to CAPTURE CODEX) and also adding DV and HD clips to time-line

Q what is the best render format to use during edit

Q what is the best EXPORT (once edit finished) to keep best Quality and to what file type when exporting finished edit

Q once Exported what is the best format for HD WEB Clip, Best format for HD Broadcast, Best format for DVD

l understand these areas are covered in past notes but its still a little confusing and the advice l would very much appreciate

paul


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Thomas Morter-Laing
Re: HDV capture,timeline,broadcast information please
on Dec 7, 2010 at 11:56:44 am

Hi,
So I hope I can help:
When capturing the footage, capture it to Apple Prores 422. Amongst many reasons for this is because it renders faster because it is more efficient with the processors, and is sort of less "lossy" than other codecs. It also has a 422 colour space for any colour corrects or quick grades you may be doing.
After that I would set the sequence settings to the same- Apple Prores 422 as your compressor (or "renderer"). You don't need Prores 422 because it wont help and will just add massive file sizes, because you're only using and HDV camera.
For exporting, for the web I would use H.264 because it is both highly compatible with most modern computers, and also keeps very good (HD) quality at very low file sizes. Use the 'youtube' preset in Compressor for some good results.

As for the output to TV, thats a little different. They should have supplied you with a sheet saying exactly what they want. HDV is not acceptable for a lot of "True" HD channels, because of the bit rate it records at and a few other things, but you would have to talk that through with whichever TV channel is online-ing and broadcasting it because they all have different requirements.

With DVD- its near impossible to keep it HD. You can fit small HD FILES onto a DVD, but then it wont be a proper DVD, simply a data DVD with the files on it (wont play in DVD players). You can trick programmes like Toast into burning short pieces to a higher frame size, to get an "HD DVD' on a "normal DVD" but this can be, and is often, very problematical (DVD players cant keep up etc). Again, I would recommend using the 'DVD Best Quality" presets in Compressor to export, then use DVD Studio Pro to burn the actual DVD. They wont be DVD, but they'll look very good.

Hope some of that was helpful.

:D
Tom Morter-Laing
Freelance Editor
Certified Apple Product Proffessional, 2010
http://www.depictproductions.co.uk

Sony Z5, with Rode NTG2.
iMac 27" intel i7 2.93GHz, 12GB RAM, ATI HD5750 [1GB GDDR5], 2TB Int. SATA with 2TB External HDD; (FW800), with Elgato Turbo H264HD.





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paul roubicek
Re: HDV capture,timeline,broadcast information please
on Dec 7, 2010 at 3:04:49 pm

Hi

Thanks for the inforamtion very helpful, but if l can add. once l have completed my edit and finalise the edit and export to quicktime file for the next steps, compressor etc.

l capture and edit in Pro res 422HQ 10bit, finalize edit, can it be exported as a dvcpro HD file to be broadcast on a HD channel that uses DVCPro HD work flows?

if l use H.264 for web, whats the average file size to keep it good for broadcast using Streambox as my portal (if you know that software)and if l use compressor you-tube is there better settings to use than this?

I have one question relating to DV if you may know please?

l shot at times in DV in the field and edit in the field. time-line and capture are dv pal, export to quick time once edit finished whats the best compression rates to use for FTP file transmitting using streambox. Al the FTP transfers are for broadcast in International News?

we have some presets that we use but quality could be better for transmission if you have any ideas and help l am listing

thanks again for all your help appreciate it

Paul Roubciek
DOP/Lighting cameraman/Producer/Editor
LinkedIn - http://th.linkedin.com/in/paulroubicek
Vimeo - http://vimeo.com/paulroubicek


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Thomas Morter-Laing
Re: HDV capture,timeline,broadcast information please
on Dec 7, 2010 at 3:32:52 pm

"l capture and edit in Pro res 422HQ 10bit, finalize edit, can it be exported as a dvcpro HD file to be broadcast on a HD channel that uses DVCPro HD work flows?"
-Well yes, but why on earth capture and edit in 422HQ 10bit??? You shot on HDV, NOTHING you do with make it 'true' hd or better quality. HDV is an 8bit codec- by using the above workflow you are only wasting time, effort and dis space. I guess to export it using that specific codec you could still use compressor, just click on the settings button of a preset, or make your own, and set the codec etc.

"if l use H.264 for web, whats the average file size to keep it good for broadcast using Streambox as my portal (if you know that software) and if l use compressor you-tube is there better settings to use than this?"
-Depends on the length of the video etc. You need to give more info I think here, but it will be absolutely fine for the web if you use that preset.

"I have one question relating to DV if you may know please?"
-Sorry your question here was a little confusing to me, it depends on a lot of factors and to be honest Im not sure what streambox is... hopefully someone else can help here...

"we have some presets that we use but quality could be better for transmission if you have any ideas and help l am listing"
_ what are the presets, where is it broadcast, what's the delivery format etc. ?

:D
Tom Morter-Laing
Freelance Editor
Certified Apple Product Proffessional, 2010
http://www.depictproductions.co.uk

Sony Z5, with Rode NTG2.
iMac 27" intel i7 2.93GHz, 12GB RAM, ATI HD5750 [1GB GDDR5], 2TB Int. SATA with 2TB External HDD; (FW800), with Elgato Turbo H264HD.





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paul roubicek
Re: HDV capture,timeline,broadcast information please
on Dec 7, 2010 at 3:56:39 pm

Thanks again for the info very helpful makes a little more sense

Pro res standard it is but whats the Pro Res LT for and do you know the bit rate?? not sure what its used for

last thing re the export if l am editing in Pro Res when l finish and finalize the edit what should l export it as ( this is for file keeps and master and also for Pre Compressor and DVD formatting and Web

as to the what are the presets, where is it broadcast, what's the delivery format etc. ? question

its for broadcast in the USA we upload via transmit export quick time to MP4 the presets l don't have with me now, but l think the highest preset was 256 file size and length of stories are around 130 to 2 minutes that's for the H.264 question

all shot in DV Pal

thanks again guys


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Mark Petereit
Re: HDV capture,timeline,broadcast information please
on Dec 7, 2010 at 3:35:16 pm

One suggestion: don't use ProRes HQ. HQ only improves quality for 2K and above. At standard 1080 HD and below, all HQ does it increase file size and bandwidth requirements with no useful increase in quality. Capture to standard ProRes 422 and your 1080 footage will look beautiful.


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paul roubicek
Re: HDV capture,timeline,broadcast information please
on Dec 7, 2010 at 3:57:59 pm

Thanks for your information great stuff

cheers Paul


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jon smitherton
Re: HDV capture,timeline,broadcast information please
on Dec 7, 2010 at 10:14:45 pm

"One suggestion: don't use ProRes HQ. HQ only improves quality for 2K and above."

not quite right... HQ uses the 709 colour space instead of 601 - imperative for HD broadcast requirements.



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gary adcock
Re: HDV capture,timeline,broadcast information please
on Dec 7, 2010 at 10:17:40 pm

[jon smitherton] "not quite right... HQ uses the 709 colour space instead of 601 - imperative for HD broadcast requirements."

Jon,

the color space in prores is defined by the source and is variable with the input format.

SD footage is handled as REC601, HD is rendered as REC 709.

gary adcock
Studio37

Post and Production Workflow Consultant
Production and Post Stereographer
Chicago, IL

http://blogs.creativecow.net/24640



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jon smitherton
Re: HDV capture,timeline,broadcast information please
on Dec 7, 2010 at 10:45:55 pm

So Prores non - HQ is in the 709 colour space if say, editing in a timeline where the source is from HDV? Does this mean the only advantage of HQ is quality over 10 re-renders? (as per the white paper)

Be good to know this with regards to space - disk-wise.

Thanks Jon.



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Dave LaRonde
Re: HDV capture,timeline,broadcast information please
on Dec 7, 2010 at 11:18:57 pm

I may only be a humble writer-editor-producer at a local TV station, But I can say from experience that ProRes 422 is the way to go.

It's FCP's "go-to" codec for editing. It requires far less storage space than ProRes HQ. It will stand up to multigenerational re-rendering. I wouldn't push it past 6 generations, but a situation requiring it happens extremely rarely, if ever.

You seem concerned about DVCPro HD delivery; know that when your edit is done, you can export to Compressor, use the DVCPro HD preset, and all will be well with the file.

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Thomas Morter-Laing
Re: HDV capture,timeline,broadcast information please
on Dec 8, 2010 at 12:35:21 am

Sorry for the dumb question but it just occurred to me, when you talk of re-rendering, you don't meant literally when the red bar appears and you render that do you? As in, I'm fully aware of generation degradation but that doesnt happen just by needs rendering does it?

:D
Tom Morter-Laing
Freelance Editor
Certified Apple Product Proffessional, 2010
http://www.depictproductions.co.uk

Sony Z5, with Rode NTG2.
iMac 27" intel i7 2.93GHz, 12GB RAM, ATI HD5750 [1GB GDDR5], 2TB Int. SATA with 2TB External HDD; (FW800), with Elgato Turbo H264HD.





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Dave LaRonde
Re: HDV capture,timeline,broadcast information please
on Dec 8, 2010 at 2:24:47 am

[Thomas Morter-Laing] "Sorry for the dumb question but it just occurred to me, when you talk of re-rendering, you don't meant literally when the red bar appears and you render that do you?"

I do not. I mean a situation where you export a ProRes 422 file, and then in some other application -- I don't know, you want to add motion graphics to this file or something -- you render a second ProRes 422 file, which would be the second generation.

Does this sound like a situation that comes up a lot? No? Then imagine how frequently a situation arises where you would go six generations.

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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paul roubicek
Re: HDV capture,timeline,broadcast information please
on Dec 8, 2010 at 4:38:56 am

Hi All

thanks for the information, but l am now a little more confused? can some one please explain in layman terms sorry to ask so much

Questions

I have HDV tape footage from a FX1 Sony (NTSC 60i l think) l want to edit it and output in FULL Quality to the WEB, Broadcast on HD TV Network and make DVD's for show

1.HDV log and Capture, should l capture the HDV in Pro Res 422 normal or HQ as l see someone said that HQ is needed for HD output (broadcast!) in the (Color Reg 709) l understand that ProRes normal is 8 bit and HQ is 10 bit (larger files) please explain if possible

2.When l render the timeline what render settings should l use?

3.when the edit is complete and l wish to make a master copy to re-use what should l export the edited time-line as to file on my storage?????

4.if l need to give the edit to a Broadcast TV Network for Airing and they want it in HD what is the best for quality and Codex (example DVCPRO HD or something else whats the best) to Use. Do l need to take it from 1440x1080 and make it 1920x1080 then Export the file to give to them ( l understand they will ask and tell me what they want but if they don't??? can l give them the Pro Res File if that's what l am using, can they use that file for there work flows and time lines they use if not Pro Res time-line)? Do l need to change the scale to the 1920x1080

5. The HDV is 1440x1080 16:9 do l need to change to 1920x1080 to see the 16:9 format when l export the file for the WEB, Broadcast and DVD as the editing window shows the whole frame no 16:9 format??? do l need the edit window tho show the 16:9 format?

6. if l want the HDV 16:9 footage to be used for the WEB and DVD ONLY and not for Broadcast whats the best set up and export of file to be? to keep the best Quality (Still Pro Res or what ever l am using)?

7. What is the ProRes LT used for can someone please expain to me what it is and and how it can be used IE> is it good for News Ediitng ETC

Thanks in advance for all your advice and time

cheers Paul


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Andrew Rendell
Re: HDV capture,timeline,broadcast information please
on Dec 8, 2010 at 11:14:51 am

I was taught that to maintain the best possible quality for broadcast it's important to have the least possible number of times that your material is compressed. That's because recompressing causes what the engineers call concatenation errors (and some broadcasters are still specifying that capture and editing should be uncompressed).

So (I was told) the best path for a compressed material is to either not change the compression for the edit and then export an uncompressed file, or convert it to uncompressed and then edit and export it uncompressed. That's not always particularly practical, but we can kind of achieve it by editing in a convenient compressed format and then conforming the cut at best quality (the old offline then online workflow).

(My training was a few years ago and various things have changed, including the invention of ProRes, since then.)

When it comes to creating files for specific purposes, I'd export the cut as Current Settings (whatever you end up using) and then use Compressor to make the versions you need, it's got presets for DVD, Web, etc to get you started. For broadcast, you do really need to get the broadcaster to tell you what file they need as my experience is that second-guessing what they're going to find acceptable is almost always a waste of time and you end up redoing it.


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paul roubicek
Re: HDV capture,timeline,broadcast information please
on Dec 8, 2010 at 1:54:42 pm

thanks for the information very helpful

cheers paul


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