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Professional way of adding 3:2 pulldown to 24p

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Daniel Stone
Professional way of adding 3:2 pulldown to 24p
on Nov 29, 2010 at 8:31:11 pm

I've searched and haven't found a good solution so I thought I'd start fresh.

We edited a :30 spot in 23.98 and need to deliver as a 29.97 digital file. I searched and haven't found a good way of doing this that gives professional results.

Typically I play out through a Kona card to BetaSP (ugh) or through Firewire to DVCPRO... and it looks PERFECT. 29.97 with a 23.98 look. It's hard to believe there's not a way of doing this conversion well while keeping the output inside my computer.

- Compressor does a surprisingly great job of making it look like it was shot in 30p - but we're losing the 24p look.

- Using AE to add the drop frame back in looks like garbage. The motion isn't smooth and every 4th or so frame gets blurred.

- Bought the Nattress standards conversion set and it also makes it look like garbage (similar to what AE does).

Answers to questions you'll probably ask:

- Yes, I'm watching it on a broadcast monitor.
- Because we filmed with the Red camera, which only films in 23.98
- Because a couple of our stations will only take 29.97 in digital format

Thanks so much for your help, guys!


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Daniel Stone
Re: Professional way of adding 3:2 pulldown to 24p
on Nov 29, 2010 at 9:15:13 pm

Sorry guys - posted too soon. I experimented with the setting a little and got it looking pretty good.

Thanks again!



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jerry wise
Re: Professional way of adding 3:2 pulldown to 24p
on Nov 29, 2010 at 9:26:15 pm

....using what software and settings.?


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Daniel Stone
Re: Professional way of adding 3:2 pulldown to 24p
on Nov 29, 2010 at 10:23:56 pm

Jerry:

In After Effects pretty much the way Dave posted.



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Dave LaRonde
Re: Professional way of adding 3:2 pulldown to 24p
on Nov 29, 2010 at 9:59:10 pm

[Daniel Stone] "Using AE to add the drop frame back in looks like garbage. The motion isn't smooth and every 4th or so frame gets blurred."

That's because you did it the wrong way. Here's the RIGHT way:
  • Import your 23.98 file. In the AE project window, you'll note the frame rate is actually 23.976.
  • Drag the footage onto the Make Comp icon at the bottom of the project window. AE makes a comp in the footage's H&V dimensions, pixel aspect ratio and frame rate, 23.976.
  • Add the comp to the AE Render Queue.
  • In the Render Queue, open the Render Settings. Find the Add 3:2 Pulldown drop-down, and select any of the five different patterns in the normal (not advanced) 3:2 pulldown cadence. You'll now note that AE will render a 29.97 file instead of 23.976.
  • Select the codec of your choice from the Output Module and hit Render.

And THAT'S how you do it in AE. Works every time.

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Daniel Stone
Re: Professional way of adding 3:2 pulldown to 24p
on Nov 29, 2010 at 10:19:47 pm

I established that. Thanks, though.



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Dave LaRonde
Re: Professional way of adding 3:2 pulldown to 24p
on Nov 29, 2010 at 10:37:19 pm

[Daniel Stone] "I established that. Thanks, though."

If that means, "that's the process we used in AE" -- a process that is unchanged and has proven reliable for more 15 years -- than then let me ask you this:

A lot of 1080 footage shot at 23.98 mistakenly can be captured/transferred into FCP still containing 3:2 pulldown, and it's actually at 59.94i. Before you started editing in FCP, did you 1) confirm the footage's frame rate in the FCP browser, 2) remove any pulldown in the original footage, and 3) edit in a 23.98 edit timeline?

If you didn't, you now have a mess on your hands, sorry to say.

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Daniel Stone
Re: Professional way of adding 3:2 pulldown to 24p
on Nov 29, 2010 at 11:24:20 pm

Good point.

We use Red proxies for editing which link back to the original R3D files and its metadata (which is usually 4K, always straight 23.98). I don't think Red does any of that pulldown or 59.94 mumbo jumbo that the broadcast cameras do. We own an old tape-based Varicam and I rarely use it for that reason -- there's always some sort of frame rate or interlacing issue.

For finishing we usually downsize the footage to 1080p, straight 23.98 within the Red software package and play out from a 1080p timeline. Basically it stays straight, clean, unmolested 23.98 the whole way through.



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Dave LaRonde
Re: Professional way of adding 3:2 pulldown to 24p
on Nov 29, 2010 at 11:46:31 pm

[Daniel Stone] "I don't think Red does any of that pulldown or 59.94 mumbo jumbo that the broadcast cameras do."

There's a clue: you might have forgotten that SD is interlaced. When you rendered out of AE, did you render in the proper field order? It's almost always lower field first for NTSC SD.

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Professional way of adding 3:2 pulldown to 24p
on Nov 30, 2010 at 5:32:22 am

Compressor does this. In frame controls, set feld dom to upper, deinterlace and frame rate conversion to fast.

Interlaced 3:2 pulldown. Booya.

Jeremy


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Homer Lee
Re: Professional way of adding 3:2 pulldown to 24p
on Mar 13, 2011 at 1:23:52 pm

hi Jeremy,

i was wondering if your compressor process would work in this situation: i got a QT file that's 1080p24 ProRes & i would like to convert it to HDV 1080i60.

i've ran a couple of tests but would always get(not sure the proper term) a double frame-blending, ghosting type look every 4th & 5th frame(especially during motion) - is that what i'm supposed to be getting?

i can give more details if this is possible to do w/o issues as this will be going to broadcast.

i posted this issue a little earlier, but came across your post & wanted ask your opinion.

thank you & i appreciate your time.


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Daniel Stone
Re: Professional way of adding 3:2 pulldown to 24p
on Mar 13, 2011 at 4:06:30 pm

One thing I found out is that you have to look at the interlaced version on a broadcast monitor to see if it's right. Watching it in QuickTime on your machine makes it look jumpy and jerky (with that interlaced ghosting you're talking about).

Hope this helps.


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Homer Lee
Re: Professional way of adding 3:2 pulldown to 24p
on Mar 16, 2011 at 6:15:40 pm

hi Daniel & Jeremy,

thank you for the monitor checking advice. this project's been put on hold for now, but i'll check it as soon as i get a chance(very curious) - although not on an actual broadcast monitor, but a regular CRT.

on a side note regarding this process, After Effects or Compressor, is this strictly a user preference or is there a benefit over one? also, if using Compressor settings, i've noticed not to choose the better quality options, are they literally a waste of time & the differences are not even noticeable?

thanx again guys.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Professional way of adding 3:2 pulldown to 24p
on Mar 14, 2011 at 3:09:41 pm

[Homer Lee] "i've ran a couple of tests but would always get(not sure the proper term) a double frame-blending, ghosting type look every 4th & 5th frame(especially during motion) - is that what i'm supposed to be getting?"

It's hard to tell without looking at it, but that does sort of fit the description for 3:2 pulldown. You should see 2 interlaced frame, then 3 progressive frames. If you post a second of full resolution video, I will happily check it on a monitor for you which is truly the only way to ensure it worked properly.

Jeremy


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Matt Wiggins
Re: Professional way of adding 3:2 pulldown to 24p
on Feb 24, 2011 at 3:08:42 pm

Hi Dave,

I am following the method of 3:2 pulldown you described above in AE Cs5, and have a question...

When I come upon the Render Settings, the 3:2 pulldown field is greyed out. When I set the Field Render setting to "Upper Field First," I can then select one of the five pattern options for the pulldown.

So, my question is, how can I achieve the pulldown without having interlaced video?

I would appreciate your wisdom,

Matt Wiggins


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Dave LaRonde
Re: Professional way of adding 3:2 pulldown to 24p
on Feb 24, 2011 at 3:48:56 pm

You can't. That's the price you pay for working in 24p.

The one way around it in AE is to invest in expensive third-party plugins like Twixtor or Magic bullet. Using them, you can convert from 24p to 30p.

Sorry, that's it.

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Bruno Miguel
Re: Professional way of adding 3:2 pulldown to 24p
on Mar 14, 2017 at 11:37:21 pm

Hi Dave.
Is there some correct way to do this 3:2 pulldown to
Transform 23.976p in 29.97i in premiere pro cc 2017 ?
Thank you so much


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Shane Ross
Re: Professional way of adding 3:2 pulldown to 24p
on Mar 15, 2017 at 12:02:34 am

I believe that Premiere just adds it when you put the clip into the timeline. Have you tried?

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Bruno Miguel
Re: Professional way of adding 3:2 pulldown to 24p
on Mar 15, 2017 at 12:06:56 am

Shane, if i crate a 29.97i sequence and just drop my 23.976 footage, plremierr will convert duplicating frames. We're looking to pulldown 3:2 conversion.


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Shane Ross
Re: Professional way of adding 3:2 pulldown to 24p
on Mar 15, 2017 at 12:13:38 am

Computer displays cannot properly show interlacing. And the point of 23.98 in 29.97interlaced is that the extra frames are distributed in the fields. So unless you have an IO Device like AJA or Blackmagic, and an external HDTV or broadcast monitor capable of interlaced playback, you won't see what it really does.

Do you have that? I'm just assuming here...

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Bruno Miguel
Re: Professional way of adding 3:2 pulldown to 24p
on Mar 15, 2017 at 12:16:39 am

Ueah Shane, we are monitoring in a sony luma series broadcast via blackmagic output. In premiere you can also choose to display both fields in order to see 3:2 happening.


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Shane Ross
Re: Professional way of adding 3:2 pulldown to 24p
on Mar 15, 2017 at 12:18:04 am

Ah..ok. Well, why not post this in the Adobe forums?

https://forums.creativecow.net/adobepremierepro

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Daniel Stone
Re: Professional way of adding 3:2 pulldown to 24p
on Mar 15, 2017 at 3:22:03 am

Always add 3:2 pulldown in the export menu. You just have to select 29.97, upper/lower frames, and pixel aspect. Premiere does a really good job. If you don't have a broadcast monitor, you can step through and count frames. If done properly, you should always advance forward with the exception of the duplicated frames.



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Kevin Hotz
Re: Professional way of adding 3:2 pulldown to 24p
on Apr 4, 2011 at 10:20:19 pm

I haven't seen anything software wise that can do what HDSR 5500-5800 Decks can do for pulldown. Anything with fast movement is going to be choppy/not smooth. Ive tested the Latest versions of Episode and Rhozet, both do not give the professional look of a deck 3:2. I havent tested this out in AE, which I am going to just to see what it looks like. I will follow the posts above, curious to see what its going to look like, and if it could be broadcasted.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Professional way of adding 3:2 pulldown to 24p
on Apr 4, 2011 at 10:42:21 pm

Compressor does it and is broadcastable. It has to be setup correctly otherwise you get interpolation.

Also, Episode does it too (has a telecine setting) and I use it all the time for certain broadcast requirements. I don't have the latest version, though. I use v5. Latest is v6, I believe.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Professional way of adding 3:2 pulldown to 24p
on Apr 4, 2011 at 10:53:19 pm

Here's more specific settings from a few days ago. Of course, you would ignore the geometry settings.

http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/8/1126948


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Kevin Hotz
Re: Professional way of adding 3:2 pulldown to 24p
on Apr 5, 2011 at 12:45:53 am

I have tested out this compressor setting for the 3:2.. Its OK, not really comparable to the hardware pulldown though. It is better then FCP just doubling frames.

I also tested out the AE settings and that was quite surprising. Video looked broadcast-able, The only problem with the AE method is that for most systems I need to finish in MPG 2.

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. Then again with this HDSR shortage, and clients not accepting working on used or evaluated stock, its going be an interesting time for deliverables.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Professional way of adding 3:2 pulldown to 24p
on Apr 5, 2011 at 1:36:59 am

In my humble opinion, 3:2 pulldown is not magic. It works or it fails. It's a recipe. I'd even set up a blind taste test to determine which is Compressor or AE.

My latest and most convenient method is to use a Kona and a KiPro. Kona adds 3:2, Kipro records frame accurate prores. I then take the kipro file and make whatever deliverable I need, as the file is 29.97i at that point.

Easy. But I understand everyone might not have a Kona and kipro available.


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