FORUMS: list search recent posts

Stupid dissolve question

COW Forums : Apple Final Cut Pro Legacy

<< PREVIOUS   •   FAQ   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
Lawrence Marshall
Stupid dissolve question
on Oct 8, 2010 at 4:00:05 pm

Good morning, cow people.

I normally edit projects that are interlaced standard def 29.97fps (DVC Pro 50) and hi def 59.94 (DVC Pro HD). So now I'm working on my first progressive 24p fps (23.976 fps) show. My entire workflow, timeline, footage, everything is 23.976 fps progressive.

And sooooo... why do my dissolves and fades look so "steppy"? My logic tells me it's a frames-per-second issue. Sure enough, if I take a couple clips, put a 1-second dissolve between them, the dissolve is very fluid at 59.94fps, definitely OK at 29.97 fps, but "steppy" or "chunkity" at 23.976 fps.

Again, logically this makes sense. But is it so wrong of me to want a fluid dissolve or fade to black at 24 fps, just like in all the really cool Hollywood movies I typically watch? *They* don't have steppy dissolves and fades.

It's me, right?

Larry (why didn't I become a blueberry farmer?) Marshall


Return to posts index

Rich Rubasch
Re: Stupid dissolve question
on Oct 8, 2010 at 4:44:19 pm

Make sure "Render All" is checked and try rendering it and see if that does anything. Also is your playback setting on highest quality or is it dynamic?

Rich Rubasch
Tilt Media Inc.
Video Production and Post
Owner/President/Editor/Designer/Animator
http://www.tiltmedia.com


Return to posts index

Lawrence Marshall
Re: Stupid dissolve question
on Oct 8, 2010 at 5:46:58 pm

"Render All" is checked, and playback is on "Highest Quality"...



Return to posts index


Dave LaRonde
Re: Stupid dissolve question
on Oct 8, 2010 at 4:50:54 pm

[Lawrence Marshall] "is it so wrong of me to want a fluid dissolve or fade to black at 24 fps, just like in all the really cool Hollywood movies I typically watch?"

No, but in addition to following Rich's advice, you do have to ask yourself this: how long are those cool Hollywood dissolves compared to mine?

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


Return to posts index

Lawrence Marshall
Re: Stupid dissolve question
on Oct 8, 2010 at 5:49:03 pm

Kidding about "those cool Hollywood dissolves"! Point being - my dissolves and fades (half-second, one-second, two-second) are just not fluid and smooth at 24 fps...



Return to posts index

Dave LaRonde
Re: Stupid dissolve question
on Oct 8, 2010 at 5:54:49 pm

May we assume that you're well aware of the concepts of 3:2 pulldown and advanced pulldown, and have taken the required steps to remove it as necessary?

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


Return to posts index


Lawrence Marshall
Re: Stupid dissolve question
on Oct 8, 2010 at 7:05:17 pm

Hi Dave -

I thought of that... I'm doing a lot of comping of the footage in After Effects. I am rendering everything as frames, not fields, and "3:2 pulldown" is not available to me in the "render settings" dialog box. It's greyed out... only active if I select "fields" for rendering.



Return to posts index

Dave LaRonde
Re: Stupid dissolve question
on Oct 8, 2010 at 7:15:45 pm

[Lawrence Marshall] "I thought of that... I am rendering everything as frames, not fields, and "3:2 pulldown" is not available to me in the "render settings" dialog box. It's greyed out... only active if I select "fields" for rendering."

Um, no, that's NOT the place you do it... you remove pulldown if necessary BEFORE you start cutting in FCP!
Did you do that? If not, I think you need to re-examine the frame rate of your footage in the FCP Browser, and take any necessary steps.

And remember: 23.98 is a FICTIONAL frame rate foisted on an unsuspecting user base by Apple and others. The correct frame rate is 23.976, which you absolutely MUST use in AE.

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


Return to posts index

Lawrence Marshall
Re: Stupid dissolve question
on Oct 8, 2010 at 7:43:11 pm

Hi Dave - here's the report:

Clips playing directly in Quicktime player indicate 23.98 fps.

Final Cut project timeline is 23.98 fps.

Clips in FC's browser window indicate 23.98 fps.


So, if I take two clips and put them on the timeline (or two still images, whatever) and put a dissolve or fade of 1 second (or 2 or 3), I get a less-than-silky smooth transition. It doesn't "stick"... it's just mildly "steppy", as opposed to a continuous ramp. "Best rendering" every option is turned on.

After Effects: I'm not using the video footage... I'm just pulling moves on photos, traveling text across screen, etc. Comp setting is 23.976, rendering out as fields...



Return to posts index


Dave LaRonde
Re: Stupid dissolve question
on Oct 8, 2010 at 7:56:18 pm

Thanks for the clarification; it helps a lot.

In AE's Interpret Footage settings, make sure field order is set to NONE. At 720P, set the Render Settings field order to None; at 1080p, it shouldn't matter much.

Then double-check the field order -- incorrectly called field dominance in FCP -- in both the footage in the browser and the edit timeline; both should be None, or whatever term FCP uses. After that, consult your video monitor and not those pea-shooter FCP viewers: a monitor is the only true way to judge image quality in FCP.


[Lawrence Marshall] "it's just mildly "steppy", as opposed to a continuous ramp. "Best rendering" every option is turned on."

Well, that's the difference in frame rates. You're not used to 23.976 yet -- it is simply not as smooth as 59.94, and it can't be because there is less motion information getting to your eyeballs. 2 1/2 times less, in fact.

And film school grads think this frame rate is soooooo cool. Yeah, right.

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


Return to posts index

Lawrence Marshall
Re: Stupid dissolve question
on Oct 8, 2010 at 8:30:38 pm

<>

Done and done.

<>

Also done. All from the get-go.

<>

Thus my premise in my very first post in the thread. I am *so used* to 29.97 and 59.94 that maybe I'm shooting at nothing here...

Thanks for your interest and suggestions, Dave and Rich.

Larry (really, was 3/4" all that bad?) Marshall



Return to posts index

Bret Williams
Re: Stupid dissolve question
on Oct 8, 2010 at 11:08:50 pm

Nobody brought this up and it has tripped me up before... What is your playback setting? If you have it set to half it's not so bad in 59.94, but if it's set to half in 24p then you're watching 12fps video. Not always noticeable on the video clips, but add a dissolve or a move and it's very noticeable.


Return to posts index


Lawrence Marshall
Re: Stupid dissolve question
on Oct 8, 2010 at 11:27:23 pm

Playback is full. Quality is high. Puzzlement is huge. What's really puzzling: the 23.98 clips themselves are completely smooth. But throw a dissolve or a fade on 'em... definitely not smooth transitions.

Larry (I'm pretty sure a lot of people make a lot more money with much less headache) Marshall



Return to posts index

Bret Williams
Re: Stupid dissolve question
on Oct 9, 2010 at 1:22:21 am

Where are you monitoring the stutter? On a computer or video monitor? What kind of monitor? NTSC or 24p capable LCD? How is it getting there? Matrox, Kona, DVCam deck, etc?

And, as been said, make sure it's fully rendered.


Return to posts index

Lawrence Marshall
Re: Stupid dissolve question
on Oct 9, 2010 at 1:58:13 am

Monitoring from an AJA LHi HD component to a Sony PVM-20L5 NTSC, capable of displaying the HiDef signal. I have used this monitor for several years monitoring DVC Pro HD in gorgeous hi-def detail. But your question raised the obvious flag: apparently it can't display progressive.

Sent the FCP program to both a 27" Apple Cinema display and then to a Dell 22" 16:9 display. (Ahem) (*cough* *cough*)... things are looking, shall we say, much more improved.

Bret wins a cookie. I get 24 hours in the corner with a dunce cap.

Larry (perhaps a glass of wine will help me feel better) Marshall


Return to posts index


Bret Williams
Re: Stupid dissolve question
on Oct 9, 2010 at 2:39:16 am

I have a matrox, so I dont know the AJA output settings, but if it's incapable of adding a true pulldown to the 24p then some sort of monitoring weirdness should ensue. But the monitor shouldn't have a problem with progressive, since the AJA is obviously downconverting to NTSC. It's the frame rate that seems to be giving the AJA a hiccup. Maybe someone knows more about the settings.

But a basic matrox mxo2 mini would handle this situation without blinking. At $450 it might be worth a buy if the AJA can't handle it.


Return to posts index

Bret Williams
Re: Stupid dissolve question
on Oct 9, 2010 at 2:42:58 am

Oh, your monitor is HD. I equate NTSC to SD. I'm sure it should be able to handle the signal somehow. The LHi should be able to convert it to something it can use at least.


Return to posts index

Lawrence Marshall
Re: Stupid dissolve question
on Oct 9, 2010 at 3:09:56 am

My AJA Kona LHI does put out a very beautiful, detailed hi-res image to the Sony, but I have to set its output to 720p 59.94. When I set the AJA to output 720p 23.98, I get nada - - just scrambled interference on the Sony.

At 720p 59.94, the image from the AJA on the Sony is beautiful. But that's where I'm also seeing these less-than-fluid dissolve and fades. Also, I've got a bunch of photos in this show I'm comping, and when they move left to right, or when I pan up and down the photos, those moves too are less than fluid. They're fine, I guess - - they are not "sticking" as if the timeline is sticking or the hard drives can't keep up - - they just don't move s-m-o-o-t-h-l-y.



Return to posts index


matthew bradshaw
Re: Stupid dissolve question
on Oct 9, 2010 at 8:36:14 am

I don't know if this would apply to you but ... I have had issues where just the transitions have been rendered with the wrong field dominance. I think this particularly can happen if you paste a sequence into a sequence with a different field dominance. You might search the cow forums, I found one link http://forums.creativecow.net/thread/8/973465 Previously I found a really good discussion but of course I can't find it now. I hope this helps.
Matt.



Return to posts index

Lawrence Marshall
Re: Stupid dissolve question
on Oct 9, 2010 at 1:52:01 pm

Good thought, Matthew - except I am working with frames, not fields. All footage was shot progressive (no field dominance) and I'm editing on a progressive timeline...



Return to posts index

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
© 2017 CreativeCOW.net All Rights Reserved
[TOP]