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Music Video shot on Red Cam 3K and 5d editing on FCP

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Steve Watkins
Music Video shot on Red Cam 3K and 5d editing on FCP
on Sep 4, 2010 at 1:21:13 am

A few questions about making everything work together.

shot for 2 days

Day 1 was on the Red Cam:

REDCODE, 3072 x 1728, Millions
32-bit Integer (Big Endian), 2.0 (Mono Mono), 48.000 kHz
FPS: 23.98
Timecode: Time of Day

Day 2 was on the Canon 5d:

H.264, 1920 x 1080, Millions
16-bit Integer (Little Endian), Stereo (L R), 48.000 kHz
FPS: 23.98
Timecode: None (meaning; starting at 00:00 for all clips)

I transcoded the Redcam footage from day 1 to:

32-bit Integer (Big Endian), 2.0 (Mono Mono), 48.000 kHz
DVCPRO HD 720p60, 960 x 720 (1248 x 702), Millions
FPS: 23.98

and the 5d footage from day 2 to:

DVCPRO HD 720p60, 960 x 720 (1248 x 702), Millions
16-bit Integer (Big Endian), Mono, 48.000 kHz
FPS: 23.98

I'm editing in FCP 6.0.6 on a non intel G5 Dual 2 GHz with 3GB DDR SDRAM running osx 10.4.11

the 2 days of footage are not supposed to match each other. day 1 was a coffee shop. day 2 was on a soundstage and will have a stylized look through color correction and filters.

So the questions....

when I'm done cutting will I be able to easily export an EDL and up res to the original files?

If yes, is that info online somewhere or in the FCP help pdf?

the red cam files are 3072 x 1728 and the 5d are 1920 x 1080: What frame size should my final product be?

When do I need to worry about picking the final frame size? (Before or after I export for color correction?)

Do I stick to the 23.98 FPS all the way through the final export?

Thank you in advance to anyone who is willing to help out. I can trade pro tools help, if you need it.

- Steve


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Shane Ross
Re: Music Video shot on Red Cam 3K and 5d editing on FCP
on Sep 4, 2010 at 1:31:59 am

So you did all of this conversion without talking to an online editor first? Because they will be the ones tackling this online.

Workflows ALWAYS ALWAYS have to be done in a specific manner... find out what you will be delivering, and work backwards. Gear your workflow to making that happen. Think of the finishing, and figure out how getting the footage into the system for the offline creative cut will facilitate the online.

Reconnoissance ... looking down the road at the obstacles so you can devise a plan on how to best approach things. That's what is needed. Not just grabbing a machete and hacking your way through the jungle. Who knows if you will hit a river, or a big cliff...and then need to find a way to get around it.

Red has about a dozen different workflows...all based on how you will be finishing. Canon 5D? Well, that's a different beast, but has a more straight forward workflow...if you were staying at 1080. But 3K and 1080p...see, you need to figure out if you will be finishing in 2K, or 1080...all sorts of things.

Put that machete away...

Shane



GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Steve Watkins
Re: Music Video shot on Red Cam 3K and 5d editing on FCP
on Sep 4, 2010 at 1:43:21 am

I did talk to a few pro editor friends of mine before blindly stumbling off but I do have a lot to learn. converting the footage to DVCProHD wasn't a lot of work. just took a few hours of processing time.

In the tv world of avid and physical tapes, we'd capture at 10:1, edit and up res before color.

now working at home on a personal project, I couldn't play back the Red footage or the 5d footage easily on my G5 in their native formats. So I was advised to transcode to DVCProHD and up res later before handing it over to color.

how i finish, is what I'm trying to find out. I have a pro color house in LA doing the color on this. I was just looking for some info on what the best frame size and frame rate is for the master copy. For Airplay/DVD/Blueray/Web quality?


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Shane Ross
Re: Music Video shot on Red Cam 3K and 5d editing on FCP
on Sep 4, 2010 at 1:51:32 am

[Steve Watkins] " have a pro color house in LA doing the color on this. I was just looking for some info on what the best frame size and frame rate is for the master copy."

Ask them. Call them and talk to them NOW. If they are going to do the finish, then you need to ask them for the workflow to best accomplish this, since they will be the ones doing this. Or are they only doing the color correct? If so...you need to ask them what they expect you to be handing them to color correct, and then work from there.

[Steve Watkins] "For Airplay/DVD/Blueray/Web quality?"

That's a WIDE gambit. Airplay? Broadcast TV? OK...HDCAM SR? HDCAM? D5? Digibeta?

DVD...that's SD... and BluRay tops out at 1080...so you might be looking at finishing at 1080. But HOW will you author to BluRay? DVD? Output to tape? These are the questions you need to know the answer to.

Shane



GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Steve Watkins
Re: Music Video shot on Red Cam 3K and 5d editing on FCP
on Sep 4, 2010 at 2:00:24 am

Thanks for taking the time to help me out.

all good points. the project lives on a TB external drive (backed up else where). I'm happy to do the up res at my place on my G5 to the drive or I could take it to the color house and use one of their faster computers. I don't want to impose though. They are coloring the video for free, doing my team and I a favor.

as for the "Master"; If I was a production company making a music video for a band/label how would I deliver the master? how would they send it to MTV/FUSE/MuchMusic for airplay? and would that be the highest quality the production company would export? I just want to end up with the highest quality music video as the footage allows.


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Shane Ross
Re: Music Video shot on Red Cam 3K and 5d editing on FCP
on Sep 4, 2010 at 2:05:42 am

[Steve Watkins] "If I was a production company making a music video for a band/label how would I deliver the master? how would they send it to MTV/FUSE/MuchMusic for airplay?"

You would ask them what their requirements are. Having worked recently on an MTV show, they want HDCAM SR 1080i, 29.97with 12 channels of audio in a very specific configuration. The other places? Gotta ask them. There is no standard.

[Steve Watkins] "and would that be the highest quality the production company would export? I just want to end up with the highest quality music video as the footage allows."

Then you will need an HD capture card, rent an HDCAM SR deck...get someone who knows how to manage that deck (very complicated)...and who knows how to output to tape the finished color corrected file. There is a reason that people make a living solely as ONLINE EDITORS. All they do is finish shows and output to tape.

Wait...a G5 and RED and Canon 5D? Owwwww. You are in for a long and painful road. That machine is severely underpowered for the more accepted workflows...mainly ProRes. You need Intel macs to deal with that.

Are you in the Los Angeles area?

Shane



GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Steve Watkins
Re: Music Video shot on Red Cam 3K and 5d editing on FCP
on Sep 4, 2010 at 2:15:48 am

I am in the LA area and have worked for MTV as well.

Look I'm just trying to make the best music video I can. a lot of friends donated their time on the shoot and this will go on all our reels.

The color house is a pro place that handles features, commercials and other well funded productions. My producing team and I have banked a a lot of favors, with local pros, over the years and we called them all in for this.

So I'm sitting here with beautiful footage and a non intel G5. the DVCProHD files play back wonderfully on my system. If it's possible to up res on my system, great. If not I'll find a work around. maybe even the color house, if they're feeling generous.

I will call the color place and ask what format they would like the video in. I was wondering what frame size my final should be.

When my master's colored can't I convert it from there to DVD quality, web quality and maybe blue ray?


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Shane Ross
Re: Music Video shot on Red Cam 3K and 5d editing on FCP
on Sep 4, 2010 at 2:28:46 am

Ok. Finish 1080 psf 23.98. You can encode to BluRay and DVD from there, and output to multiple tape formats.

Shane



GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Steve Watkins
Re: Music Video shot on Red Cam 3K and 5d editing on FCP
on Sep 4, 2010 at 2:46:17 am

will do. A good looking, versatile master, sounds perfect.

I have taken your advice about working backwards to heart. with the exception of color, I am the entire post team and the G5/FCP is my post house. it's very different from the TV production i'm used to. So i'm learning a lot, to say the least. thanks for the help.


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Steve Watkins
Re: Music Video shot on Red Cam 3K and 5d editing on FCP
on Jan 13, 2011 at 10:39:32 pm

they there. since we last talked. I have become the only (or lead) A.E. on a reality show for VH1. this show is a mother. we shot 5/7d and hd vercam. we had two audio mixers recording to stand alone units. the director shot jpg sequences in rapid fire succession on the 5d, that play back like time-laps. We also have editors that work in house and remotely. We're working in MC 3 (no a2a). before this job i had never worked in avid. so as you can imagine, I've been thrown into the fire.

I just wanted to write you and let you know that with a greater understanding of the whole process, i see why my question to you was vague at best.

thanks for taking the time to answer and help me out.


- Steve

p.s. i'm on the hunt for a good program that will let me screen capture (.mov not still) in HD. can you recomend anything?


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Scott Sheriff
Re: Music Video shot on Red Cam 3K and 5d editing on FCP
on Sep 4, 2010 at 1:44:50 am

Steve,
"What frame size should my final product be?"

It usually works best to know what your delivery format is going to be, and work backwards from that all the way back to acquisition.

I would think that ProRes would be better than DVCPro.
And not knowing what your delivery requirement is, I'm just gonna throw out that sticking with the 5D's native frame size of 1920x1080, and bringing the RED down to that would be better than bringing them both down to 720, unless that is the desired finish frame size.

Just a guess on my part. I bet the big guns on the forum will come along soon with better advice.

Scott Sheriff
Director
SST Digital Media
http://www.sstdigitalmedia.com


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Steve Watkins
Re: Music Video shot on Red Cam 3K and 5d editing on FCP
on Sep 4, 2010 at 1:49:50 am

thanks for the advice. you're a bigger gun than i, in this world.

this is a music video that I'm directing and cutting (at home) the color place is 100% pro with pro gear and he's doing it as a favor to my producers and I.

so "delivery requirement", meaning the desired final product or how I had it to my color house?

I guess I just want the sharpest picture possible right? is there a standard delivery format for HD music videos?

I think I'm not being as clear as I can. I'm trying though


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Shane Ross
Re: Music Video shot on Red Cam 3K and 5d editing on FCP
on Sep 4, 2010 at 2:00:17 am

[Steve Watkins] "I guess I just want the sharpest picture possible right? is there a standard delivery format for HD music videos?"

There is no standard when it come to HD. SD had more standards. 29.97fps 720x486. PERIOD. HD? 4K, 2K, 1080i, 720p...23.98, 29.97, 59.94...HDCAM SR, D5, HDCAM, DVCPRO HD, XDCAM HD, HDV... the list goes on. The History Channel has TWO deliverables. HDCAM and D5...720p and 1080psf.

Ask them what they want from you. THey might not be using FCP to color correct, they might be using an Avid DS Symphony...or Smoke, or DaVinci. And those require certain file types...so ask.

Communication is key.

Shane



GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Steve Watkins
Re: Music Video shot on Red Cam 3K and 5d editing on FCP
on Sep 4, 2010 at 2:05:24 am

the color house is using a stand alone system. it's like a DaVinci (he says it's better). I didn't think the frame size had anything to do with color.


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Shane Ross
Re: Music Video shot on Red Cam 3K and 5d editing on FCP
on Sep 4, 2010 at 2:09:30 am

[Steve Watkins] "t's like a DaVinci (he says it's better)."

OK.."like a DaVinci" sounds like, well, it isn't but they want you to think it will be as good. There are many options that are that good. COLOR is one. If this is being done in COLOR, that's a bonus, as that is part of the Final Cut Studio suite, and that means that your FCP project will get their easier. BUT, to get things to Color, you have to prep properly. Can't mix formats and frame sizes. Everything needs to match.

[Steve Watkins] "I didn't think the frame size had anything to do with color."

Color correcting 2K requires specific hardware (say like an AJA Kona 3), and not all software can do it either. Color can though.

Shane



GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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