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Edit to tape 1 frame off

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Mike Alexander
Edit to tape 1 frame off
on Aug 30, 2010 at 5:19:24 pm

I have been having a problem with frame accuracy with Final Cut - Edit to tape (Digibeta-NTSC.) I am using bars and tone generated by Final Cut. the IN point I type in is fine and the bars start at the proper place, but the slate and commercial end up being 1 frame early even though I have it laid out correctly in the sequence. If I then set an IN point where the slate is supposed to be on the 2nd try, the slate is fine, but the commercial is still 1 frame early. Thus it is taking me 3 tries to get everything to start on the correct frame. Are there any controls or settings I might need to check?


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John Pale
Re: Edit to tape 1 frame off
on Aug 30, 2010 at 5:38:18 pm

Yes. There are offset adjustments in your Device Control settings.


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Mike Kahn
Re: Edit to tape 1 frame off
on Aug 30, 2010 at 7:46:19 pm

I have had this problem as well with a digibeta output. Whats happening is not actually an offset issue, but rather it is doubling up the first frame of the output. You can't tell because it's happening with bars, but I suspect if you begin with some video you would see that the first frame is being laid in twice.

My work around has been to begin the output two frames early on the tape and one frame early in the sequence. This way it doubles a black frame and the first frame of picture is laid in correctly. I insert like this:

00:58:29:28- tape in point
00:58:29:29- sequence in point (black frame)

If you are having the same issues I have (again I only have this problem with digibeta's) then this should work. Just don't do any inserts after the fact unless they are right after a black frame, meaning if you have to make a fix, you'll have to start at the act break.


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Shane Ross
Re: Edit to tape 1 frame off
on Aug 30, 2010 at 8:20:36 pm

Odd...I've never had this issue. What capture card are you using?

Well, I have had this issue when outputting 23.98 to 29.97. I solve that by outputting bars and tone and then the slate...but then stopping when it get to the program start...and doing another EDIT TO TAPE at the 1:00:00:00 mark, program start. WOrks fine.

Shane



GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Mike Kahn
Re: Edit to tape 1 frame off
on Aug 30, 2010 at 8:24:09 pm

I use a Kona3 with the most up to date software. I have had this issue mainly when downconverting 59.94HD to 29.97SD.

When I downconvert 23.98 to 29.97 I do what you said Shane. Stripe a tape and do inserts up to the 1:00:00:00 and then do an assemble edit after that.


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Mike Alexander
Re: Edit to tape 1 frame off
on Aug 30, 2010 at 8:27:40 pm

Thanks to all. I think John's post was what I needed. The "Playback Offset" was set to something like 1.5 frames. I put it to zero and started a new project and the resulting tape was frame accurate. I have a KONA 3 card. I'll do some more testing later, If it happens again, I'll repos.


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Michael Gissing
Re: Edit to tape 1 frame off
on Aug 31, 2010 at 12:34:05 am

Also frame accurate consistency is best achieved when the Kona and the digibeta are locked to en external video reference signal. I am working in PAL but have never had this issue with Kona3 and digibeta & HDCam.


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Matt Callac
Re: Edit to tape 1 frame off
on Aug 31, 2010 at 3:19:32 pm

Mike,

In case the offset isn't the problem.

I had a similar issue for a while. It was intermittent and nothing would fix it. FCP for some reason was Dropping one of the frames of Bars and Tone on ETT. So even though my Bars duration was 35:00 it would only lay 34:29. Check one of your layoffs to see if that's what is happenening. I just had to deal with the issue for a while and then I figured out what was happening. Sometimes I'd open an older project from a previous version of FCP and grab some elements. Sometimes I'd also grab my bars tone/slate because it was for the same client. So for some reason anytime i'd grab old bars from a project that wasn't the exact same version of FCP It would drop 1 frame of the bars. I have no idea why it did this. But the workaround I've used has just been to use fresh bars/tone everytime...and don't copy paste the bars/tone. Hope this helps.
-mattyc


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Mark Spano
Re: Edit to tape 1 frame off
on Aug 31, 2010 at 6:05:42 pm

This problem sucks, and it's been in FCP forever. I know it's difficult to RTFM when the FM is almost 2000 pages long, but here's a relevant section:

Playback Offset: This option allows you to compensate for latency between
Final Cut Pro device control (the number in the Current Timecode field) and your
video interface output, since some video interfaces take some time to process the
video signal. This is only an issue when using separate connections for device control
and video output, such as serial RS-422 device control and a PCI video card.
Enter a number to compensate for delays between the start of playback and the start
of recording on your deck when editing to tape. This is normally set to 0. Enter a
positive number to start playback before recording begins; enter a negative number
to start playback after recording begins.
Note: If the first frame is duplicated over several frames when you’re editing to tape,
enter the number of duplicated frames in this field to eliminate the problem.


So do that. But don't expect it to be accurate all the time. At least this will solve part of the problem (the duplicated frame issue). I have talked to AJA, Apple, and anyone else who will hear, and no one seems to be able to offer any fail-proof method of using FCP with tape machines. Not many people realize also that lots of times video and audio will be off in both capture and layback by frames or even a field. I am convinced (especially after this latest bout) that it's impossible to solve. I trust the Symphony systems in house for frame and field accurate edits - not FCP/KONA/Matrox/Blackmagic/etc.. Your mileage of course may vary...



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Michael Gissing
Re: Edit to tape 1 frame off
on Sep 1, 2010 at 5:27:01 am

[Mark Spano] "Your mileage of course may vary..."

Indeed it does. Both with the Blackmagic and now the Kona3, with suitable reference video and correct offset settings, I do not have anything but 100% frame/field accuracy when doing edit to tape either on my DVW 2000 or HDW 1800.

I find the methodology of all edit systems in doing a play from freeze to be strange as it means you can't do audio inserts, but accuracy is not a problem if you have the correct setup. If I had a wish it would be that FCP pre rolled and locked to the tape machine so that both are in locked play before the insert.

I work in 25 fps which may help to improve accuracy


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