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Trimming 5DMKII project to then convert to ProRes?

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Rodrigo Silvestri
Trimming 5DMKII project to then convert to ProRes?
on Aug 18, 2010 at 11:28:50 pm

Hi all.
I am a beginner colorist and am going to start grading a film next week.
The project was recorded in a 5D camera, then all the media was converted to the ProRes Proxy format, then edited and reconnected.

Now I have the entire sequence connected to those H.264 files.
I know I can send this sequence to Color, but Color works too slowly with this type of compression. That's why I want to convert everything to ProRes 422 HQ.
The problem is: I cannot find a way to trim the project (using the Media Manager) so I can then recompress only the used parts to ProRes 422 HQ. This seems to be because of its current compression.
And as almost all the files are ~15min long, it'd take a long time (~3 days) to recompress all the used source files (that'd be using media manager to move all the current used files to a separate folder, and then using Compressor to convert).

Is there any smarter way to do this?
Thanks,
Rodrigo Silvestri

--
Some people seem to love getting angry. I don't :)


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Adrian Roup
Re: Trimming 5DMKII project to then convert to ProRes?
on Aug 19, 2010 at 12:48:54 am

Hi Rodrigo,

Interesting problem. I've suffered similar problems working with Flip Cam footage which is also H.264. The approach that seems to have worked best for me is to covert everything first and then edit. However it sounds like you won't have time for that. If your offline edit is locked can't you just output a ProResHQ of your time line and then bring that back into Color? If speed is your top priority - this may be the way to go. Another option would be to copy everything that's on your timeline and paste it into a new BIN in Final Cut - you'll then effectively have an EDL referencing your used media - it might be possible to re log and transfer the footage (into ProResHQ) using this BIN... I've not tried this but maybe worth a shot? I'll follow with interest - hopefully the legendary Gary Adcock or one of the other Gents will come to the rescue.

Best wishes,

Adrian



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Rodrigo Silvestri
Re: Trimming 5DMKII project to then convert to ProRes?
on Aug 19, 2010 at 1:38:02 am

[Adrian Roup] "If your offline edit is locked can't you just output a ProResHQ of your time line and then bring that back into Color?"
Yes, the problem with this is that I need every clip to be separate. So I need to remove all cross dissolves, fade ins/outs, then separate those clips with cross dissolves (to an extra sequence), extend them in the timeline so I have the footage needed to then reapply the filters later.
Then export and convert everything to ProRes HQ, then use the original files to cut the new files again, reconform all the edits and transitions, and theeen send to Color.
I think this is what I'm gonna do (I've already told the director to start doing all this, preparing the sequences, etc).

[Adrian Roup] "Another option would be to copy everything that's on your timeline and paste it into a new BIN in Final Cut - you'll then effectively have an EDL referencing your used media - it might be possible to re log and transfer the footage (into ProResHQ) using this BIN..."
Log and Transfer tool says that the folder structure is not compatible. I found no ways of importing H.264 footage to Final Cut directly (and have a "trimmable" sequence), you need to make the proxies or just convert everything to ProRes HQ (or ProRes) and get rid of the H.264 footage.

Hope Apple surprises us with Final Cut Studio 4. If it is ever released, then I believe FCP will have native H.264 editing.

Thanks
Rodrigo Silvestri .

--
Some people seem to love getting angry. I don't :)


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Trimming 5DMKII project to then convert to ProRes?
on Aug 19, 2010 at 3:13:44 am

To log and capture 5d footage you need the free log and transfer plugin and you need the original CF card file structure with THM files. Then log and transfer will work.

Grinder will convert your files for you, but it's still going to take a lot of hand matching back.

Man, what a mess. A 5 minute search on the web before the edit started would have saved days of trouble.

Any idea how the original proxies were made?


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Rodrigo Silvestri
Re: Trimming 5DMKII project to then convert to ProRes?
on Aug 19, 2010 at 3:51:26 am

I'm just the colorist :P, met this project yesterday.

Anyway I'm used to incompatibility issues, using EDLs as cut lists, etc. I mean, lots of projects come from Premiere or AVID or complex situations that I just ask for one file and one EDL.

I didn't know of that way of importing H264 to FCP.
I understand the proxies were made in Compressor, edited, and then reconnected to the original files.
I don't have the project here, but I can ask the editor how he did this.

If the footage was ingested through log and transfer, would that be helpful for what I want to do? Or should I just stick to the one-file-ingest and manual cut?

Thanks!
Rodrigo Silvestri

--
Some people seem to love getting angry. I don't :)


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Trimming 5DMKII project to then convert to ProRes?
on Aug 19, 2010 at 3:55:59 am

[Rodrigo Silvestri] "I'm just the colorist :P, met this project yesterday."


I'm not blaming you, I'm blaming whoever did this. It's total craziness.

If they logged and transferred to begin with, then all oyu have to do is media manage the final timeline to a ProRes HQ setting with handles (Create Offline), then relog and transfer just what you need to ProRes HQ.


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Michael Gissing
Re: Trimming 5DMKII project to then convert to ProRes?
on Aug 19, 2010 at 4:20:23 am

If the project with the H264 files opens in FCP then you can Media Manage and delete unused medai and add 3 second handles. At the same time, recompress the project to ProRes. That should just do the shots in the project to length plus handles and make it ProRes for Color.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Trimming 5DMKII project to then convert to ProRes?
on Aug 19, 2010 at 4:24:44 am

That's the method he said would take three days to compress.


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Shane Ross
Re: Trimming 5DMKII project to then convert to ProRes?
on Aug 19, 2010 at 4:54:28 am

H.264 is NEVER to be used. Ever. That is the base camera codec, and one for final delivery...never match back to it for finishing. They did this wrong, not you. Will Color even accept this format?

Media manager will not work unless the footage has REEL numbers. Reel numbers are added if you use LOG and TRANSFER (them, not you)...or if you use Grinder.

What can you do? If Color won't take the H.264 files...then when you render out as ProRes, it will render only what is used, with handles. If not, then you need to manually add reel numbers to all the footage, then media manage.

Bill for each and every hour it takes you to clean up this mess.

Shane



GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Rodrigo Silvestri
Re: Trimming 5DMKII project to then convert to ProRes?
on Aug 19, 2010 at 5:10:52 am

[Shane Ross] "H.264 is NEVER to be used. Ever. That is the base camera codec, and one for final delivery..."
I DPed a short film with a 5D last year and I was going to do the post-production. As soon as I came home with the drives, I converted Everything to ProRes and deleted the camera files, LOL.

Color takes H.264 files and seems to handle them OK. The big problem is that playback is slow, and it has a longer lag to start/stop playback. Scrubbing is impossible. That's why I asked the director to start preparing the project for exporting two video files, one with the base layer and one with the extended clips that have cross dissolves.

[Shane Ross] "
Bill for each and every hour it takes you to clean up this mess."

I'm doing it ;)


Thank you.
Rodrigo Silvestri.

--
Some people seem to love getting angry. I don't :)


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Michael Gissing
Re: Trimming 5DMKII project to then convert to ProRes?
on Aug 19, 2010 at 11:16:52 am

That's why I was suggesting using 'delete unused media' unlike the description in the OP which was converting full files, not trimmed.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Trimming 5DMKII project to then convert to ProRes?
on Aug 19, 2010 at 12:24:47 pm

Like Shane says. Wont work without reel names. I also think media manager does the worst job of transcoding. Also it's the slowest.

I really wish you could send an XML to the stand alone compressor app.


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Matt Holmes
Re: Trimming 5DMKII project to then convert to ProRes?
on Sep 14, 2010 at 1:51:08 pm

I understand the workflow they were trying to accomplish. We're looking at something similar here. We do documentary work and come back from overseas trips with 500+ GB of H.264 from a 5D. Transcoding all of that to ProRes results in 1.5 to 2.0 TB of total footage. Not unmanageable for one trip, but when you have to leave several trips online at once things start to fill up quickly. ProRes Proxy is great for cutting, but not for final output to Color, AE, whatever. But to get your final edit back to a decent flavor of ProRes you have to switch back to H.264 first. It's not Rodrigo's job to do, but someone has too.

We're having the same issue with media managing the H.264 files. Going to try manual reel names to see if that changes anything. Thanks for everyone's input.

Matt


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Shane Ross
Re: Trimming 5DMKII project to then convert to ProRes?
on Sep 14, 2010 at 1:58:01 pm

[Matt Holmes] " ProRes Proxy is great for cutting, but not for final output to Color, AE, whatever."

Correct...it is an OFFLINE editing codec. When you are done editing, you media manage the cut and reimport the footage as ProRes 422. See my tutorial on the offline/online process.

http://library.creativecow.net/ross_shane/tapeless_online/1

[Matt Holmes] "But to get your final edit back to a decent flavor of ProRes you have to switch back to H.264 first."

No, you don't. You need to ACCESS the originals, but you reimport those as ProRes 422. Color will not accept H.264 files.

[Matt Holmes] "We're having the same issue with media managing the H.264 files. Going to try manual reel names to see if that changes anything"

THis is why you need to give the folder that you offload to a unique name. This is the REEL name when you import into FCP via Log and Transfer. Watch my tapeless workflow tutorial for that:

Tapeless Workflow for FCP 7 Tutorial

Shane



GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Matt Holmes
Re: Trimming 5DMKII project to then convert to ProRes?
on Sep 14, 2010 at 2:30:53 pm

Shane,

Thanks for the tutorial. Haven't used Log and Transfer much, so that was helpful and is definitely an option for us.

We were trying something similar, just using Media Manager instead of Log and Transfer, but to do that we would have to point our sequence back to the H.264 first so that on the second Manage it could use that to recompress to full ProRes 422. So yes, it would only reference the H.264. Any other finishing would be done in the ProRes 422. More complicated, but does limit the amount of material transcoded to full quality. Hope that makes sense.

Matt


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Shane Ross
Re: Trimming 5DMKII project to then convert to ProRes?
on Sep 14, 2010 at 3:10:08 pm

Media manager is what you use on footage you imported or captured to a codec FCP works with. It requires that the footage have reel numbers. If you just point FCP to the h.264 files, they won't have reel numbers. This is why you must use Log and Transfer. There are certain ways you must do things if you want stuff to be done right.

Or are you saying you already edited the H.264 files and now you need to convert them to ProRes? If so, assign the footage reel numbers, then MM.

Shane



GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Shane Ross
Re: Trimming 5DMKII project to then convert to ProRes?
on Sep 14, 2010 at 3:11:33 pm

Media manager is what you use on footage you imported or captured to a codec FCP works with. It requires that the footage have reel numbers. If you just point FCP to the h.264 files, they won't have reel numbers. This is why you must use Log and Transfer. There are certain ways you must do things if you want stuff to be done right.

Or are you saying you already edited the H.264 files and now you need to convert them to ProRes? If so, assign the footage reel numbers, then MM.

Shane



GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Matt Holmes
Re: Trimming 5DMKII project to then convert to ProRes?
on Sep 14, 2010 at 3:45:01 pm

Transcode all original H.264 to Proxy using Compressor. Import the Proxy files into FCP, log, and edit. With picture lock, point final sequence or video bins back to H.264 (will have to add reel names manually). Then Media Manage (trimming the footage), and recompressing as ProRess 422. Now we can add graphics, do color correction, and any finishing work.

Again, I think Log and Transfer is probably simpler, but the above does work. The key was adding the reel names.

Thanks again.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Trimming 5DMKII project to then convert to ProRes?
on Sep 14, 2010 at 3:48:41 pm

[Matt Holmes] "Again, I think Log and Transfer is probably simpler"

No question.


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