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5D to FCP conversion issues

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mark wilkinson
5D to FCP conversion issues
on Aug 6, 2010 at 3:13:00 am

we are transcoding a bunch of footage for a doc shot on the 5D. our plan was to go to ProRes LT but we have been getting a weird gamma shift and some issues with the saturation. the machine we first tried this on is running snow leopard and the latest quicktime and final cut studio 3. we took the original test clip and converted clips to a machine that is running leopard and quicktime 7.6.2 and the differences between the original clip and the test clips were less noticeable. has anyone noticed this ?


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: 5D to FCP conversion issues
on Aug 6, 2010 at 3:21:22 am

[mark wilkinson] "we are transcoding a bunch of footage for a doc shot on the 5D. our plan was to go to ProRes LT "

OK, how are you transcoding?


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mark wilkinson
Re: 5D to FCP conversion issues
on Aug 6, 2010 at 3:25:20 am

well our original route was through MPEG Streamclip but when our editor noticed the gamma shift he started trying Compressor but Compressor was so crushingly slow that we gave up and started this posting process. i am not sure if he got clips out of Compressor or not to compare with MPEG Streamclip.



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: 5D to FCP conversion issues
on Aug 6, 2010 at 3:31:50 am

You should try the Canon Log and Transfer PlugIn.

Jeremy


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mark wilkinson
Re: 5D to FCP conversion issues
on Aug 6, 2010 at 3:36:29 am

i have never used it - it transcodes to other codecs too ?

the only problem with that is we have 2 TB of footage already in on the drives for this project.



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: 5D to FCP conversion issues
on Aug 6, 2010 at 3:41:26 am

[mark wilkinson] "the only problem with that is we have 2 TB of footage already in on the drives for this project."

Yeah, but if it's transcoded improperly, is it any good?

the Canon plugin is easy. It allows transcoding to ProRes of all flavors.

and


it's free.


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mark wilkinson
Re: 5D to FCP conversion issues
on Aug 6, 2010 at 3:47:42 am

i hear you but ( forgive my lack of knowledge about it ) can we take clips that were pulled directly off the SD cards and onto drives, and still run them through the Canon tool ?



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: 5D to FCP conversion issues
on Aug 6, 2010 at 3:49:17 am

You need the full card structure, not just the .movs.

http://www.usa.canon.com/dlc/controller?act=GetArticleAct&articleID=3249

Jeremy


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mark wilkinson
Re: 5D to FCP conversion issues
on Aug 6, 2010 at 4:06:17 am

thanks for your help on this jeremy. i guess we are a bit hooped then for this method as the cards have been wiped dozens of times since we captured the first footage. great for next time though.



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: 5D to FCP conversion issues
on Aug 6, 2010 at 4:22:17 am

Yes, it's convenient.

You don't have to make the DMGs as Canon suggests, you can simply make a new folder per SD card and drag and drop the entire contents in to that folder. Also, look in to shotput pro to automate and verify this process.

Do you still have the orig h264s at least?

How do you know there's a gamma shift, i.e. how are you monitoring?


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mark wilkinson
Re: 5D to FCP conversion issues
on Aug 6, 2010 at 5:22:09 am

yes, we have the original H264's. that is what we have been starting with when we go to ProRes LT - can those go into the Canon App?. the gamma shift is noticeable in comparing the original H264 and the ProRes LT versions in QT Pro and in FCP. As i mentioned in my initial post though, this difference is not evident on a machine running Leopard and QT 7.6.2



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Shane Ross
Re: 5D to FCP conversion issues
on Aug 6, 2010 at 4:26:52 am

DUDE! You didn't back up the cards? You just imported and then wiped them? Do you capture from tape and then record over it again? Sorry, that was a poor choice to make. You MUST back up the cards, the original card structure. To a hard drive. This is your master tape that you then import from and work with.

What happens if you lose your media drive? All the media will be gone. What if you imported wrong and need to redo things? Oh, yeah...that's what happened now.

Now...where are you judging this gamma shift? If you don't have the original files, what are you comparing with? What you saw on the LCD display? That'll be different. And when you convert from one codec to another, there will be a slight shift too. But all you need to do is color correct it after you are done editing...that's normal.

The Canon plugin is a good choice. As is Magic Bullet Grinder (http://www.redgiantsoftware.com). That software uses ALL the processors to speed up the process. Great app.

Well, you can't convert what you already have converted...gotta live with that. In the future, back up and try the other options.

Shane



GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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mark wilkinson
Re: 5D to FCP conversion issues
on Aug 6, 2010 at 5:28:57 am

the process of getting the H264s off the cards just seemed like a process of moving files. we have the original H264 files sitting on drives. three copies in separate locations. in all my reading about moving files i didnt come across anything about retaining the file structures. it just seemed like the movie files would contain what we needed - i mean call me crazy but its a movie file.

anyway. as you say, the gamma shift is not severe and can be worked out in the final timing but it is good to know for the future that there are other workflows that might avoid this stuff in the future.



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Jason Myres
Re: 5D to FCP conversion issues
on Aug 6, 2010 at 7:05:02 am

[mark wilkinson] "i mean call me crazy but its a movie file."

If these are just your home movies, sure. But if you're doing this prefessionally, yikes. I wouldn't let a director hear you saying that. You should probably read this:

http://broadcastengineering.com/infrastructure/where-tapeless-workflow-begi...

Pay close attention to the section on transfer software.

JM


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Shane Ross
Re: 5D to FCP conversion issues
on Aug 6, 2010 at 8:13:06 am

Well, at least you saved the .mov files. I'll give you credit for that. Log and Transfer is a far better way to go here, because it brings in two things editors crave...reel numbers and unique timecode. You see, the OTHER files, the THM files, they contain information...metadata. Time of day code of the footage. So instead of every clip starting at 00:00:00:00. which is maddening, each clip has unique time-of-day timecode. And the reel number is the name of the folder you backed up the footage, so if you ever lost the media drive, you know where to look to reimport your footage...and if you log and transferred it, all you need to do is hit BATCH CAPTURE and FCP will reimport the footage and leave the cut you did intact.

Without that, you are manually reimporting the footage, renaming it (Log and transfer allows for custom naming...and it remembers where the orignals are) and manually reconnecting the footage. Laborous work.

But, at least you have the masters

Now...are you viewing with QTX or QT7.6? QT X isn't ready for prime time, still has lots of issues. ANd I know there is a gamma issue with people running SL that happens on occasion. Not quite sure what the solution is there.

Shane



GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Nick Price
Re: 5D to FCP conversion issues
on Aug 6, 2010 at 1:03:47 pm

hia
also just to add another thought. If you're using compressor now you don't have the file structure, are you using qmaster to enable all your computers processors? It will speed up transcoding massively, especially if you have a mac pro.

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=337736

cheers
nick


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Steve Eisen
Re: 5D to FCP conversion issues
on Aug 6, 2010 at 2:33:09 pm

[Nick Price] "don't have the file structure"

If you don't have the complete file structure, you can recreate it.

Duplicate all your mov's and replace the mov extension with thm. You then can use log and transfer. If you have installed the plug-in.


Steve Eisen
Eisen Video Productions
Vice President
Chicago Final Cut Pro Users Group


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Chandler Kauffman
Re: 5D to FCP conversion issues
on Aug 18, 2010 at 3:33:38 pm

Shane and co.
Just started playing around with the E1 plug in, for the last year I've just done MPEGStreamclip with my 5D footage. Let me see if I got this right:
On set: Drag and drop the card directory; DCIM and MISC folders, into a new folder on your desktop. This is your archival master. Card can be re-formatted and shot on again.
In FCP, bring the file created on set into E1, Log and Transfer to whatever codec, ie ProRes, add log notes etc TC will be created from date/time stamp in the THM file and match the reel # back to on set file/master file name.
The ProRes or whatever files will live in the Capture Scratch folder, but can be moved into another location, just need to reconnect media in FCP?
That file you initially created on set is your Master.
Bueno?
Also, I have tons of shot footage imported through Bridge CS4 so the THM files came in with the video files. Can I just dump these into DCIM>100EOS5D to use in E1?
Also, anyway to do a data check on incoming files from CF cards similar to the the CRC function in XDCAM software?
Thanks guys

Sony EX1
Canon 5d mark 2
FCP 6.06


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: 5D to FCP conversion issues
on Aug 18, 2010 at 3:37:13 pm

Your workflow sounds good. As far as moving the files, yes, you can move and then reconnect if that's what you need.

[Chandler Kauffman] "Also, anyway to do a data check on incoming files from CF cards similar to the the CRC function in XDCAM software?"

I don't know what this is, but if you are talking about offloading, I would use ShotPut Pro. It verifies that offload and sends to multiple drives.

Jeremy


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Chandler Kauffman
Re: 5D to FCP conversion issues
on Aug 18, 2010 at 3:48:20 pm

Thanks Jeremy, yeah I like to keep footage, raw and transcoded, in one master file based on the project, and then duplicate that on at least 2 drives.
Don't know what CRC stands for but basically it double scans the incoming data from the card to the hardrive and detects/repairs any data corruption. I'll check out Shotput
Also in shooting in a run and gun doc situation with two cameras, I suppose I could set the TC generator on my EX1 to use time of day and as long as the Canon and EX clocks are (relatively) in synch that would at least provide a rough reference for synching in case PluralEyes is having trouble with a clip.
It would be awesome if there were a way to set the Zoom H4N to use time of day....

Sony EX1
Canon 5d mark 2
FCP 6.06


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: 5D to FCP conversion issues
on Aug 18, 2010 at 4:22:54 pm

[Chandler Kauffman] "Also in shooting in a run and gun doc situation with two cameras, I suppose I could set the TC generator on my EX1 to use time of day and as long as the Canon and EX clocks are (relatively) in synch that would at least provide a rough reference for synching in case PluralEyes is having trouble with a clip."

You will get close, but with these still cameras, they just aren't video cameras and you have to adjust your workflow to make up for any deficiencies.

[Chandler Kauffman] "It would be awesome if there were a way to set the Zoom H4N to use time of day...."

If you're doing this a lot, I'd recommend getting an audio recorder that does take/generate tc. The sound devices 702t or 744t recorders are nothing short of amazing. It's not cheap, but with the money you 'saved' by going to HDSLR, you can afford it! Ha! ;)

Jeremy


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Chandler Kauffman
Re: 5D to FCP conversion issues
on Aug 18, 2010 at 4:32:24 pm

Exactly, sooo much money saved buying endless workarounds.
A lot of my clients want to shoot on the 5D, which is fine, as for my own doc I stick with the EX1 whihc is just a work horse and looks great. people always ask if the footage from it is the 5D and seem annoyed when the answer's no.
I use the Zoom with the EX to get extra audio tracks when needed. SO far Plural eyes has done well enough synching this stuff although it has trouble with the 5D from time to time because of the crappy on board mic picking up so much ambient.
I suppose I could always shoot the LCD display on the Zoom for "time code reference" a la the good old days of film and a proper smart slate

Sony EX1
Canon 5d mark 2
FCP 6.06


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: 5D to FCP conversion issues
on Aug 18, 2010 at 4:46:13 pm

[Chandler Kauffman] "people always ask if the footage from it is the 5D and seem annoyed when the answer's no."

Isn't that amazing? That's so tragically funny how a buzzword can influence how people see pictures. Nevermind they think what they are seeing looks good, but when they find out it WASN'T shot on a 5D, they think lesser of it. Totally boggles my brain cells.

[Chandler Kauffman] "I suppose I could always shoot the LCD display on the Zoom for "time code reference" a la the good old days of film and a proper smart slate"

That's a way to do it, or use one of those iPhone smart slate thingy's. If you go the 702t route, at least your EX1 and external audio from that device will be in perfect sync.

[Chandler Kauffman] "SO far Plural eyes has done well enough synching this stuff although it has trouble with the 5D from time to time because of the crappy on board mic picking up so much ambient."

You might want to think about a cheaper hot shoe mic to mount on top of the 5D camera. at least it will be better than the on board for Plural Eyes. Something like this:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/534023-REG/Sennheiser_MKE_400_MKE_400...

Jeremy


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: 5D to FCP conversion issues
on Aug 6, 2010 at 1:21:25 pm

Well, there's allot going on here. You say you see it in one instance, but not others. This seems to tell me that you aren't monitoring properly. There's gamma weirdness thy happens, sure. Call me crazy, but for the most part, I think Snow Leopard has been a huge step in the right direction, but you still have to watch yourself.

The ProRes codec also has gamma correction built in to it. Maube turn that off. Also, I just learned the other day that Canon h264 files might have a 601 color space, which be default has slight but different gamma value of the transcoded 709 ProRes files. Compressor has controls for this as well.


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mark wilkinson
Re: 5D to FCP conversion issues
on Aug 6, 2010 at 5:22:03 pm

wow. giant piece of learning here. all of the input is appreciated. with regard to the the 'duplicate the .movs and change the extension to THM - isn't it the THM that contained the important data in the first place ?

and to your thought about monitoring jeremy, when i say we are seeing differences that is between four QT movies displayed in four quadrants of the same monitor and the difference is between movie 1 and movies 2,3, and 4. then when the same four movies are shown on a different system ( older OS and QT ) there is almost no difference between the four movies displayed.



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: 5D to FCP conversion issues
on Aug 6, 2010 at 5:42:34 pm

[mark wilkinson] "with regard to the the 'duplicate the .movs and change the extension to THM - isn't it the THM that contained the important data in the first place ?"

I don't see how this mehtod could work, although crazier shit has happened. The THM is a very small file that is encrypted with text data. The THM file, as Shane says, has the metadata needed to make tc and other info.

[mark wilkinson] "hen when the same four movies are shown on a different system ( older OS and QT ) there is almost no difference between the four movies displayed."

In QT 7, make sure the 'Enable Final Cut Pro Studio Color Compatibility" Box is checked in the Qt prefs.

And you should be judging this through a capture card on a broadcast monitor.


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Steve Eisen
Re: 5D to FCP conversion issues
on Aug 6, 2010 at 9:36:11 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "I don't see how this mehtod could work, although crazier shit has happened."


This is where I saw it.
http://thebuibrothers.com/blog/2010/03/how-to-canon-t2i-with-eos-movie-plug...

Steve Eisen
Eisen Video Productions
Vice President
Chicago Final Cut Pro Users Group


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: 5D to FCP conversion issues
on Aug 6, 2010 at 9:56:03 pm

Thanks for the link.

OK, that's way different than duplicating and renaming the MOV file. Like, light years different. Plus, this is for 'hacking' t2i files, not 5D or 7D.

Further, he is basically fudging the metadata file with a working metadata file. If you notice and look closely, it's still not right. The metadata (specifically, the timecode) for each clip should be the same in both of his examples. If you look closely, the tc is off. While this is an interesting method to trick FCP in to seeing the proper file structure, it's not right.

I could edit all the clips in my p2 folders and totally change all the timecode, metadata and everything with a working XML file, but that doesn't mean I would end up with the data I needed, in fact it would be completely wrong, even though I could get the footage in to FCP.


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