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Mixing 29.97 and 23.98 seems okay to me.

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John Barnard
Mixing 29.97 and 23.98 seems okay to me.
on Jul 12, 2010 at 11:10:44 pm

I'm no technical expert but,

In a 29.97 sequence, we were mixing 29.97 HD and 23.98 HD footage (XDCAM) and it seemed to work fine for us. One of the editors tried it on a whim - we hit render and it all looked good.

It seems everyone on this forum is bothered by the result of final cut-added pulldown but I couldn't see the problem. Am I missing something?

The lads layed back to HDCAM 59.94 and delivered. Will this all end in tears?

John B

Blackmagic card
Whatever the current final cut version is.



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Michael Sacci
Re: Mixing 29.97 and 23.98 seems okay to me.
on Jul 12, 2010 at 11:16:49 pm

The issue is normally when trying to go the other way. 29.97 into a 23.98 sequence. If you want the cleanest 24p look editing in a 29.97 hurts that.


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John Heagy
Re: Mixing 29.97 and 23.98 seems okay to me.
on Jul 13, 2010 at 2:15:11 am

It is a subtle difference... three fields vs four. Where you will notice the 4 fields is if the repeated frames happen on a cut, even more so if its on both sides of a cut. You will see a "pause" then the cut.


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Shane Ross
Re: Mixing 29.97 and 23.98 seems okay to me.
on Jul 12, 2010 at 11:18:41 pm

FCP removes...or adds...pulldown improperly. 2:2:2:4 instead of 2:3:3:2. So you will see A, B, C, D, D when you mix formats. Or the odd frame just pulled out. Playback isn't as smooth as it is with proper pulldown. You might not be able to see it, your editors might not (guess it takes a trained eye?), but to a lot of people it will look wrong...and the network might reject it due to cadence errors. But, they might not.



Shane



GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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John Barnard
Re: Mixing 29.97 and 23.98 seems okay to me.
on Jul 13, 2010 at 2:46:16 pm

You know, looking at it closely I think the final cut pulldown might be visible on rapid pans, but that could also be the inherent strobiness that seems to come from 24p video. Luckily the program doesn't have many of those.


John

Blackmagic Multibridge
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Dave LaRonde
Re: Mixing 29.97 and 23.98 seems okay to me.
on Jul 12, 2010 at 11:29:45 pm

If you're trying to do ANY of the following:
  • Make a 24pDVD
  • Make a film-out
  • Make 24p video for the web
  • Make motion graphics whose motion precisely matches the footage (e.g. motion tracking)

...you have to remove the pulldown to create a 23.976 (aka 23.98) file BEFORE you begin editing, and edit in a 23.976 timeline.
If you don't propose to do any of that, you can leave the footage alone. However, it's an extremely painful road back if you change your mind later. It's certainly not for the faint of heart nor those pressed for time.

[John Barnard] "23.98 HD footage (XDCAM)"

If it's 1080 and not 720, it wasn't true 23.976 footage. It was actually 59.94i footage containing 3:2 pulldown. They give it a fancy name now: Progressive Segmented Frame.

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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John Heagy
Re: Mixing 29.97 and 23.98 seems okay to me.
on Jul 13, 2010 at 2:24:14 am

[Dave LaRonde] "If it's 1080 and not 720, it wasn't true 23.976 footage. It was actually 59.94i footage containing 3:2 pulldown. They give it a fancy name now: Progressive Segmented Frame.
"


Are you saying one can't shoot 1080p 24?.. because you can. Also, PSF is truly progressive and does not contain 3:2 pulldown.







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Dave LaRonde
Re: Mixing 29.97 and 23.98 seems okay to me.
on Jul 13, 2010 at 3:30:16 am

John Heagy: "Are you saying one can't shoot 1080p 24?"

Read more closely: I'm saying that you CAN shoot at 23.976 frames/sec, but because of the limitations inherent in most cameras at the 1080 resolution, it can't RECORD the video at 23.976 frames/sec. It has to be recorded at 59.94i, with 3:2 pulldown added to distribute the slower frame rate properly.

Kapiche?



John Heagy: " PSF is truly progressive and does not contain 3:2 pulldown. "

That's pure, unadulterated BALONEY. Who's been teaching you about video, anyway?

What do you think the the "Segmented" in "Progressive Segmented Frame" means, anyway? At 1080, where almost all cameras have interlacing (as in 59.94i), the camera scans a frame of progressive video, but records it as two fields. That's where the "segmented" part of the name comes in.

As Wikipedia puts it, "Progressive segmented Frame (PsF, sF, SF) is a scheme designed to acquire, store, modify, and distribute progressive-scan video using interlaced equipment and media."

And if that progressive-scan video happens to be shot at 23.976 frames/sec (aka 23.98), how do you propose to spread those very few frames across all those fields? You have to repeat some frames as extra fields! You do it by adding pulldown!

It can be the normal 3:2 pulldown which has been used ever since people started showing movies on TV (24p), or it can be the kind designed to make it easier for computers to remove it, returning the footage to the 23.976 frame rate at which it was shot (24pa).

Before you start pontificating, why don't you get your facts straight?

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Dave LaRonde
Re: Mixing 29.97 and 23.98 seems okay to me.
on Jul 13, 2010 at 5:10:51 pm

I should probably add this:

Perhaps you are fortunate enough to have a camera that shoots true 1080p. It may even be capable of doing this at a variety of frame rates, 23.976 included. If so, there are no doubt people who would gladly exchange a brand-new Corvette for your camera.

However, if you can only get a 10-year-old Toyota for your camera, the chances are overwhelming that it's incapable of true progressive scan at 1080. Such cameras are used by the majority of people.

At 1080, these cameras work a lot like the formerly-groundbreaking, standard-definition Panasonic DVX 100 DV camera. It is capable of shooting progressive-scan at 29.97, but it records that frame as two fields. It's also capable of shooting at 23.976, but it uses 3:2 pulldown or advanced pulldown to record the 23.976 images at 29.97.

You can think of such a camera as a precursor to more modern HD cameras that shoot progressive segmented frame at 1080.

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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John Heagy
Re: Mixing 29.97 and 23.98 seems okay to me.
on Jul 13, 2010 at 5:31:28 pm

[Dave LaRonde] "Read more closely: I'm saying that you CAN shoot at 23.976 frames/sec, but because of the limitations inherent in most cameras at the 1080 resolution, it can't RECORD the video at 23.976 frames/sec. It has to be recorded at 59.94i, with 3:2 pulldown added to distribute the slower frame rate properly.

Kapiche? "



[Dave LaRonde] "[John Barnard] "23.98 HD footage (XDCAM)"

If it's 1080 and not 720, it wasn't true 23.976 footage. It was actually 59.94i footage containing 3:2 pulldown. They give it a fancy name now: Progressive Segmented Frame. . "


Dave:

Sorry but no amount of "reading between the lines" would allow one to gleam your meaning from the above quote. Even with your explanation your premise is still incorrect. 1080p 23.976 exists in true progressive native form in XDCam, along with many others. DVCProHD is the only prof. format that does 24p as 60i with 3:2, and that's only because of it's tape roots.



[Dave LaRonde] "John Heagy: " PSF is truly progressive and does not contain 3:2 pulldown. "

That's pure, unadulterated BALONEY. Who's been teaching you about video, anyway? "


Okay... now this is almost as much fun as popping bubble pack. Sorry Dave, but you are incorrect. I'd tell you to check your facts, but you already did and you still don't understand.

So you believe 24 PsF is 24p with 3:2 pulldown? This is dead wrong. 23.976 1080p is truly progressive, even as PsF. PsF is simply a means to and end, the end being being a true progressive image. You seem to think 24p can only exist in 60i with 3:2, this is simply 1080i60. Let's get this straight before I explain further.

Here's my esteemed colleague's explanation of PsF: http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/8/1089254


[Dave LaRonde] "Before you start pontificating, why don't you get your facts straight?"

That's funny...

John Heagy



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Mixing 29.97 and 23.98 seems okay to me.
on Jul 13, 2010 at 5:13:18 pm

[John Barnard] "It seems everyone on this forum is bothered by the result of final cut-added pulldown but I couldn't see the problem. Am I missing something? "

I would think so, yes.

I am confident that your 24p footage has 2224 pulldown added to it. Look at a 24p clip and watch it frame by frame in your 29.97 sequence. My guess is that after four frames, the fourth frame is duplicated.

Frame 1, 2, 3, 4, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 8, etc.

Jeremy


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Dana Strom
Re: Mixing 29.97 and 23.98 seems okay to me.
on Sep 26, 2010 at 4:56:50 am

Maybe I shouldn't have been operating under assumptions, but seeing as how FCP adds a proper 3:2 cadence to a 24p (yes, 23.98) clip when dropping into a 720p60 sequence, I thought we wouldn't have problems working some acquired 24p HD footage into our 1080i timeline...

When I watched it back, the stutter was obvious enough for me, and therefore for a QC flag... which I do my best to avoid at all cost.

So it's the interlacing process that FCP can't handle? It can only assign cadence progressive frames? I was okay with that because my second assumption was that Cinema Tools must surely be able to handle this type of thing... right?

Nope. Even the official documentation seems to run you around in circles... 'FCP and Compressor can add pulldowns to your 23.98 footage...' but the reality is that the best either of them can do is a 2:2:2:4 cadence.

Does anything in the FCP sweet do this? Apparently Compressor does. After some research, I found a few threads that helped me to solve the issue. The secret is to put the 24p clip in compressor, apply a compression setting that matches all the settings, then select 29.97 for the frame rate and IMPORTANT: turn on frame controls, and choose 'bottom field' for field dominance.

That seems to do the trick... now Apple just needs to include a filter, compressor setting or function in Cinema Tools to do this because no, a 2:2:2:4 cadence is NOT up to broadcast par.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Mixing 29.97 and 23.98 seems okay to me.
on Sep 26, 2010 at 3:58:45 pm

[Dana Strom] "So it's the interlacing process that FCP can't handle?"

Not for adding proper 3:2 pulldown, no, it can't handle it.

[Dana Strom] "I was okay with that because my second assumption was that Cinema Tools must surely be able to handle this type of thing... right?"

It can remove pulldown, but not add it.

[Dana Strom] "MPORTANT: turn on frame controls, and choose 'bottom field' for field dominance."

If going to NTSC yes, for 1080 it would be upper. That, and the leave the "Rate Conversion" to "fast".

Here's a complete description for going from 1080p23.98 to 1080i29.97. You would need to adjust the appropriate settings for NTSC, namely frame size and field order:

http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/8/1033717

Jeremy


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