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Down converting quicktimes.

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Eric Rainey
Down converting quicktimes.
on Jul 9, 2010 at 5:59:32 pm

I am looking for the best software workflow solution to down convert a ProresHQ 1920 x 1080 quicktime to standard def(SD) 720 x 486 letterbox? I have done multiple tests with down converting quicktimes with compressor and no matter what I do they do not come out as clean as when I down convert through the KONA 3 card. The text looks blocky there artifacts in the images etc. Yes, I even use the "Frame Controls - Resizing Control - Best". The problem with doing an SD down convert with the KONA 3 is a more laborious process because I have to layoff to tape(digibeta) then redigitize the SD tape in order to have a quicktime. If anybody has figured this out then me and about 10 editors would greatly appreciate it!!!

Thanks



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Jerry Hofmann
Re: Down converting quicktimes.
on Jul 9, 2010 at 6:23:12 pm

I think that you're simply seeing the improved compression done in hardware instead of software. It's typically better than any software compression...

What codec does this SD version need to be?

Jerry

Apple Certified Trainer, Producer, Writer, Director Editor, Gun for Hire and other things. I ski.

8-Core 3.0 Intel Mac Pro, Dual 2 gig G5, AJA Kona SD, AJA Kona 2, Huge Systems Array UL3D, AJA Io HD, 17" MBP, Matrox MXO2 with MAX Cinema Displays


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Eric Rainey
Re: Down converting quicktimes.
on Jul 9, 2010 at 6:40:03 pm

Yes I agree the hardware is much better but I would think someone has figured out a way to do some software solution. I have a AE artist that is going to program a script to do the downconverts in AE but I was wondering if anybody had any other solutions? AE's down convert looks better than compressor. It has been years since I have used Cleaner...has anybody done any comparisons?

Another question as well...I have seen many people with this problem....when i use the KONA 3 to down convert, the layoff is not frame accurate. I usually set my "edit to tape" window to start the layoff a frame early but it only nails it 1 out of 4 times(average). I know I can offset the layoff in the software but gees... it only randomly hits the right timecode.



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Jerry Hofmann
Re: Down converting quicktimes.
on Jul 9, 2010 at 6:58:06 pm

If the layoff is via firewire, it's normal for it to not be accurate actually. If the machine is controlled via RS-422 it should be the same offset each time... unless the machine needs some servicing. That can be the problem for sure.

But my experience has been that a RS-422 machine is always the same amount off and that can be fixed with the offset parameter in the Device control preset.

Got the latest drivers for the Kona? That might help if they're not the latest ones.

Jerry

Apple Certified Trainer, Producer, Writer, Director Editor, Gun for Hire and other things. I ski.

8-Core 3.0 Intel Mac Pro, Dual 2 gig G5, AJA Kona SD, AJA Kona 2, Huge Systems Array UL3D, AJA Io HD, 17" MBP, Matrox MXO2 with MAX Cinema Displays


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Eric Rainey
Re: Down converting quicktimes.
on Jul 9, 2010 at 7:14:12 pm

I am at a facility with 10 digidecks dvw 500, dvw 500a, dvw m2000...all different. None ever come in frame accurate. No editor here has ever had a solid layoff. I can try to see if they will update the KONA software but I bet that won't work because I have talked to numerous editors and all laugh at how bad FCP is at laying off frame accurate. Thanks for the tip i will try it.



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Jerry Hofmann
Re: Down converting quicktimes.
on Jul 9, 2010 at 8:15:32 pm

Honestly, I've never had a problem with beta SP machines, but haven't checked the digibetas around. Don't ever need to do an insert much. Is that what you're doing? Is the behavior the same on an assemble? If the machines are all properly serviced, I'd sure be reporting this in feedback.

Is there a router involved, or are the machines all local?

Jerry

Apple Certified Trainer, Producer, Writer, Director Editor, Gun for Hire and other things. I ski.

8-Core 3.0 Intel Mac Pro, Dual 2 gig G5, AJA Kona SD, AJA Kona 2, Huge Systems Array UL3D, AJA Io HD, 17" MBP, Matrox MXO2 with MAX Cinema Displays


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Shane Ross
Re: Down converting quicktimes.
on Jul 9, 2010 at 8:19:59 pm

[Eric Rainey] "I am at a facility with 10 digidecks dvw 500, dvw 500a, dvw m2000...all different. None ever come in frame accurate. No editor here has ever had a solid layoff. "

What are you doing that is wrong then? Because I have output to HDCAM SR and Digibeta...60 shows last year (3 HDCAM SR, 1 Digibeta each), and 13 this year thus far (2 to HDCAM SR, 2 two digibeta each), and they are nothing BUT frame accurate. Kona 3, Kona LHi, Matrox MXO2. Spot on.

BetaSP...that's a different story. Well, I can ASSEMBLE edit fine, it is the INSERT EDITS that aren't accurate.


Shane



GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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John Pale
Re: Down converting quicktimes.
on Jul 9, 2010 at 7:10:06 pm

Post your file specs and Compressor settings.

Something may be need to be adjusted other than the Frame Controls.

Also, "Best" is not always the best setting. "Best" uses Optical Flow, while pretty fantastic, can actually INTRODUCE artifacts on some material...especially TEXT. Try Better instead.


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Eric Rainey
Re: Down converting quicktimes.
on Jul 9, 2010 at 9:43:02 pm

Hey thanks for your responses...I have attached a frame the uncompressed(right side)was from Kona 3 layoff and then redigitized, new prores444(looks the same uncompr or prores)(left side) was from compressor. I have adjusted and tried many different settings in "frame controls". Let me know if you have an adjustment?

Thanks
Eric







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Eric Rainey
Re: Down converting quicktimes.
on Jul 9, 2010 at 10:12:27 pm

Where I am at, the facility black and code the tapes for us so all of us have been doing "insert edits". Maybe assemble edit will make our layoffs more accurate? But, what happens when you have to re-layoff to the same tape...all of us have had to re-layoff. Does the assemble edit lay down new timecode again or is it just doing an insert edit?

Thanks
Eric





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Shane Ross
Re: Down converting quicktimes.
on Jul 9, 2010 at 11:07:01 pm

I can insert edit fine too. Well, not 100%...that's a bummer. Closer to 85%. But betaSP inserts is the big issue. 25% accuracy...horrid. Digi, HDCAM SR...85-90% Insert. Yeah, not the best. Avid is better. I black the first two min of a tape, then Assemble edit...with black at the end.



Shane



GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Eric Rainey
Re: Down converting quicktimes.
on Jul 9, 2010 at 10:07:47 pm

Maybe why none of us can get frame accurate layoffs is because we are doing an insert edit vs. assemble edit. The facility I am at Black and Codes all the digi tapes we use so that is what has made sense to us. I will try assemble editing our SD layoffs and see what happens. But, how many times have you started an output and then you needed to stop the output mid stream or re-layoff the the sequence onto the same tape. Will assemble edit re-lay the timecode back on the tape like the original assemble edit?

As for posting pics of my compressor downconverts. on the left is compressor on the right is kona 3 layoff. It is hard to tell in the pics the difference but the compressor down convert is much more "edgy" or "jaggy". I will try and post the pics again...it wouldn't take them earlier. I would do higher res but forum only allows under 500k.

picture6.png

picture7.png



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Jerry Hofmann
Re: Down converting quicktimes.
on Jul 10, 2010 at 1:32:09 pm

When you make an assemble edit, the TC track is re-recorded, and the out edit will not be particularly "clean"... so thus the black at the end of a layoff - the out point of this edit is way off the end of the program. I usually only black about 10 seconds on the front of a new tape, then assemble edit starting 5 seconds before the black runs out. If I have to lay off again though, it's the whole show again using another assemble. Start the TC at say 58 minutes, then setup the edit so the program starts at 1 hour...

Jerry

Apple Certified Trainer, Producer, Writer, Director Editor, Gun for Hire and other things. I ski.

8-Core 3.0 Intel Mac Pro, Dual 2 gig G5, AJA Kona SD, AJA Kona 2, Huge Systems Array UL3D, AJA Io HD, 17" MBP, Matrox MXO2 with MAX Cinema Displays


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