FORUMS: list search recent posts

Workflow: 1080 60p from Panasonic HDC-TM700 camera

COW Forums : Apple Final Cut Pro Legacy

<< PREVIOUS   •   FAQ   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
Khashyar Darvich
Workflow: 1080 60p from Panasonic HDC-TM700 camera
on May 29, 2010 at 7:25:38 pm

Hello Everyone,

As a second camera, I am purchasing a Panasonic HDC-TM700 video camera that shoots in 1080 60p, 60i and 24p, in the AVCHD codec.

I read reviews of the TM700 carefully, and decided that it was a very good usable camera for the price, and with its 35mm lens and 3 cmos chips, that it produced good quality 1920x1080 images, even in low light).

I am trying to think about whether to use the TM700 in 1080 60i mode (17 mbps), or in its 1080 60p mode (28 mbps).

I understand that the 60p mode (at 28 mbps) would probably produce a better image than the 60i mode (17 mbps).

I also understand that a converter is necessary to bring the AVCHD into Final Cut Pro.

So, since our other cameras will probably be shooting at 1080 60i, does it make sense to shoot with the Panasonic in 60p, and then convert it to 60i for post-production?

We are also going to probably be incorporating some HD video footage from the Canon 7D still camera (which shoots video at both 1080 30p and 1080 24p).

What kind of workflow do you guys think would be best?

Should we edit in 60i?

What codec should we use?

Thank you for your thoughts and feedback.



Return to posts index

Doug Buckser
Re: Workflow: 1080 60p from Panasonic HDC-TM700 camera
on May 30, 2010 at 8:18:16 am

G'day,

Yes, I'm thinking about buying this camera as well. I wouldn't buy it, though, if I can't edit the footage using FCP 7.

Regards,
Doug




Return to posts index

Jessica Mathies
Re: Workflow: 1080 60p from Panasonic HDC-TM700 camera
on Jun 8, 2010 at 4:55:29 pm

Hi Khashyar,

I too am looking to buy this camera, but am hesitant because I need to edit in Final Cut. Can someone please advise us on which workflow would be ideal?

Also, in regards to Doug's comment, I know that you can edit the footage in Final Cut. Apparently Final Cut does not natively support the AVCHD format, but you using Compressor, you can edit the footage one you compress it using the AppleRes codec. I've also heard you can log and transfer your footage and that will automatically apply Apple Res.

But again, can someone please offer a good workflow for the Panasonic HDC-TM700 / HS700 and FCP?

Thanks,
Jessica

Jessica


Return to posts index


gary adcock
Re: Workflow: 1080 60p from Panasonic HDC-TM700 camera
on Jun 9, 2010 at 1:50:32 am

[Jessica Mathies] "I too am looking to buy this camera, but am hesitant because I need to edit in Final Cut. Can someone please advise us on which workflow would be ideal? "


Jessica

1080 60p does not exist on a prosumer cameras, that is a professional format that requires a DUAL LINK signal (2-HDSDI or 1-3G HDSDI connection). You will need a high end VIdeo card ( AJA or BMD) card at minimum to be able to handle that signal or to load in the easy set ups to be able to do this.

There are only about 12 camera models or types that support 1080 60p and all of them cost in excess of $60K USD



gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows for the Digitally Inclined
Chicago, IL

http://blogs.creativecow.net/24640



Return to posts index

Chris Bennett
Re: Workflow: 1080 60p from Panasonic HDC-TM700 camera
on Jun 10, 2010 at 12:47:57 am

There are only about 12 camera models or types that support 1080 60p and all of them cost in excess of $60K USD



gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows for the Digitally Inclined
Chicago, IL


Gary

Have you had a chance to check out this range of camcorders? I have the TM700. It does shoot natively in 1080 60p and the files are superb. It is also possible to edit in FCP but you have to convert the files first. The best way is to rewrap the files with an application called "Clipwrap". This will also transcode it if you want. I deciding to edit the material in ProRes 422. This works great but I am still fiddling with compressor settings to do justice to it on output. (I have only had it for two days and I have been busy with other stuff)

The Panasonic HDC-xx700 series cameras are amazing machines though. The lens is a match for the file quality and it goes wide at 35mm (35mm equivalent). It also has a lot of manual control. I was about to go for a Canon as a stealth camera before I came across this. It will be a great go anywhere action camera.


chriscotech


Return to posts index

gary adcock
Re: Workflow: 1080 60p from Panasonic HDC-TM700 camera
on Jun 10, 2010 at 9:07:34 pm

[Chris Bennett] "Have you had a chance to check out this range of camcorders? I have the TM700. It does shoot natively in 1080 60p and the files are superb. It is also possible to edit in FCP but you have to convert the files first."

Chris,

Yes I have tested this camera as part of a project I was working on and according to my hardware the signal is not 60p but actually line doubled 60i as would be the nature of the processing out an HDMI signal.

FCP does handle 1080 60p but only with 3rd party video cards, not natively within the application itself, as working in 1080 60p currently requires either a dual link or 3G connection to be handled properly in post.

gary adcock
Studio37

Post and Production Workflow Consultant
Production and Post Stereographer
Technology Development
Quality Assurance Assistance

Chicago, IL

http://blogs.creativecow.net/24640



Return to posts index


Chris Bennett
Re: Workflow: 1080 60p from Panasonic HDC-TM700 camera
on Jun 10, 2010 at 10:32:36 pm

Gary

Thanks for your reply. That's very interesting. Forgive my ignorance. I am a still photographer. I have some motion picture camera experience, with film and video, but nowhere near enough experience in post.

I was assuming Panasonic's claim was correct because in the FCP browser the rewrapped footage is listed as 1080, 60fps and progressive. I must say this is all very confusing. Should I "convert" the files to what Final Cut knows to be 60i ?

Chris

chriscotech


Return to posts index

gary adcock
Re: Workflow: 1080 60p from Panasonic HDC-TM700 camera
on Jun 11, 2010 at 12:18:24 am

Chris, no issues

this is what the Cow is all about, I just happen to be a real geek in regards to the video signal stuff.

[Chris Bennett] "I was assuming Panasonic's claim was correct because in the FCP browser the rewrapped footage is listed as 1080, 60fps and progressive."

Very interesting- we never got to that stage- we rejected the camera based on what the scopes were telling us (it was for a feature and we needed to match much higher end cameras)
The footage may very well read that way- but "line doubling" means that the file is only half the vertical resolution due to the duplication of every other line=

I am going to assume that you do not have a video output for your work, (like a kona or matrox card in your computer) and therefor you not ever see some of the issues related to a true 60P workflow.

1080 60p like its cousin 720p60 (note different "p" position) on the higher end cameras support VFR or variable frame rate captures allowing the shooter to "overcrank" or "undercrank" the footage to slow it down or speed it up. There are a relative few consumer devices that can handle that frame rate for playback ( like on your TV set - we are talking about editing video here)




gary adcock
Studio37

Post and Production Workflow Consultant
Production and Post Stereographer
Technology Development
Quality Assurance Assistance

Chicago, IL

http://blogs.creativecow.net/24640



Return to posts index

Chris Bennett
Re: Workflow: 1080 60p from Panasonic HDC-TM700 camera
on Jun 11, 2010 at 6:12:33 am

Gary

Although I haven't heard of line doubling before, it makes sense. I am guessing that it would be visible when looking oat a single frame. It seems like a way of disguising what is basically a padded out interlaced file and getting away with calling it "P".

I bought this camera with overcranking in mind. So much so that I deliberately didn't get the PAL version, which is correct for my region. I get 20% more frame rate that way and NTSC is better for web shooting. The conversion doesn't drop frames either. I have played with overcranking before on an old 35mm Arri (Expensive!) I guess there are no free lunches.

I still find this camera very useful for its wide lens and manual control. I needed the best thing I could take to remote places and I'm pretty pleased with this so far.

Thanks for your helpful information.

chriscotech


Return to posts index


stacey johnson
Re: Workflow: 1080 60p from Panasonic HDC-TM700 camera
on Sep 12, 2011 at 10:00:29 pm

Gary: You describe the Panasonic HDC-TM700 having "1080/60p" by line-doubling 1080/30p; is that the same general principle used by JVC GZ-HD6U? The HD6U has 60p footage in a format that is difficult to edit also.
Recognizing that most of us do not have 60K to drop on a true 1080p camcorder, do you see the Panasonic HDC-TM700 as worth the money, now being that it is a year old? Do you know of significant 1080p breakthroughs in the near future that would make that format more in the TM700 price range?

Thank you,

Stacey Johnson


Return to posts index

gary adcock
Re: Workflow: 1080 60p from Panasonic HDC-TM700 camera
on Sep 19, 2011 at 12:31:35 pm

[stacey johnson] "Gary: You describe the Panasonic HDC-TM700 having "1080/60p" by line-doubling 1080/30p; is that the same general principle used by JVC GZ-HD6U?"

on the video ouput- yes that is correct- note please that in this thread I was not talking about what the camera recorded- but what the ouput video signal is- they are 2 completely different things.

1080 60p as a video signal is beyond the processing power of most computers, and way beyond most playback devices- it is used when the footage intended for Slo-mo in the Pro space and not much else.
So use it when you want to slow the footage down- otherwise use the more tradional frame rates.

gary adcock
Studio37

Post and Production Workflow Consultant
Production and Post Stereographer
Chicago, IL

http://blogs.creativecow.net/24640



Return to posts index

Rafael Amador
Re: Workflow: 1080 60p from Panasonic HDC-TM700 camera
on Sep 19, 2011 at 1:12:31 pm

There is an Script that seems to help editing the PANA 1080p50/60 stuff.
Rewraps the .mts as .m4v so they can be cut and converted in FC:
https://public.me.com/catservant
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


Return to posts index


Jonas Bendsen
Re: Workflow: 1080 60p from Panasonic HDC-TM700 camera
on Feb 7, 2013 at 8:12:19 pm

FWIW, I came to this thread looking for some specs/advice on using this camera in 24p mode (which doesn't seem to support manual controls and also seems to actually be converted 60i, so I'm thinking I'll shoot 60p or 60i and convert it myself in post rather than let the camera do it).

What I found interesting was this huge heated argument that apparently started with:

"1080 60p does not exist on a prosumer cameras"

When it DOES in fact exist on this camera. It may only exist via USB/File Transfer, which Mr. Adcock later admits, but it absolutely exists (i.e. You can shoot "true" 60p with this camera). If Mr. Adcock had stated that 60p does not exist on the video out, which apparently is what was required for HIS needs, that would have been a completely different conversation.

I'm only pointing this out for those who may use this camera and wonder what in the heck is going on (q: "Can I use this camera to shoot 60p?" a:absolutely, but the video out does not support 60p, so you will need to transfer the files to work with the 60p footage).

I'm not sure why transferring files (vs. capturing via video out) can't be considered a "professional workflow," but I guess that is yet another conversation.

:::::::::::::::::::::
This is my life, I edit and edit and edit and edit...


Return to posts index

gary adcock
Re: Workflow: 1080 60p from Panasonic HDC-TM700 camera
on Feb 11, 2013 at 4:16:17 pm

[Jonas Bendsen] "When it DOES in fact exist on this camera. It may only exist via USB/File Transfer, which Mr. Adcock later admits, but it absolutely exists (i.e. You can shoot "true" 60p with this camera). If Mr. Adcock had stated that 60p does not exist on the video out, which apparently is what was required for HIS needs, that would have been a completely different conversation."



Mr Brendsen,
A little late on the reply ( that thread and comments were posted July 2010)

I stated a number of times in that thread about trying to be able to see and handle the SIGNAL from the camera as 60p, that is a very different task than working with a file based workflow.

It was stated here http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/8/1095041 and my commentary and explanation was carried over 13 additional posts to which I did correct my oversight here http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/8/1106368

gary adcock
Studio37

Post and Production Workflow Consultant
Production and Post Stereographer
Chicago, IL

http://blogs.creativecow.net/24640

follow me on Twitter
@garyadcock




Return to posts index

Jonas Bendsen
Re: Workflow: 1080 60p from Panasonic HDC-TM700 camera
on Feb 11, 2013 at 9:25:34 pm

Totally understood, Gary... just clarifying for future thread readers.

There is a lot of back and forth in the thread regarding whether or not the camera can capture 60p (which it can) where the original poster just wondered if that was the case (not whether or not the camera could handle 60p signal output -which was kind of a thread derail).

Thanks for all the added information though! It's good to have for anyone in the future stuck using that camera for whatever reason (like I was this past week).

I'll be happy to get back to my DSLR's and rented RED's now. [smile]

:::::::::::::::::::::
This is my life, I edit and edit and edit and edit...


Return to posts index


Dennis Couzin
Re: Workflow: 1080 60p from Panasonic HDC-TM700 camera
on Jul 13, 2010 at 4:10:36 am

Gary Adcock can't believe that the $1000 Panasonic HDC-TM700 shoots 1080 60p so he makes up a story about it line-doubling. No, Panasonic isn't so stupid to fill up memory twice as fast with "padding" which is no more than the most primitive deinterlace will achieves in playback. Fact is: the Panasonic is shooting 1080 60p; there are many passionate believers in 1080 60p among Japanese image scientists and Panasonic's couldn't hold back. Panasonic disturbed Sony by this mutation of their AVCHD standard and now is disturbing FCP7 users (since while the ProRes codec allows 1080 60p, FCP7 refuses to transcode the improper Panasonic AVCHD 1080 60p to ProRes 1080 60p). Clipwrap to the rescue.

The Panasonic HDC-TM700's 1080 60p is no cheat, but it's a cheesy 1080 60p because of the high factor of interframe compression. Uncompressed 8-bit 4:2:2 1080 60p requires 1898 Mb/s. The Panasonic HDC-TM700 is recording 28 Mb/s. The 68:1 compression factor is the cheese. From the way it looks, the intraframe compression is perhaps around 7:1 and the interframe compression is perhaps around 10:1. When action (or camera movement) is slow the picture looks great because 7:1 intraframe compression, with all those pixels, is hardly visible. But when action (or camera movement) is fast the image is jumpy, unrealistic, and looks nasty. (These are my preliminary observations -- we've had an HDC-HS700 for just a few days.) Panasonic wanted the camera to work reliably with all Class 4 SDHC flash cards, so their maximum 28 Mb/s was reasonable and an essential limitation of the camera. According to my image tastes they should have set the H.264 parameters to greater intraframe compression with less interframe, but something had to be sacrificed.

Apple ProRes for 1080 60p uses 293 Mb/s. (It's 10-bit.) Comparing this with Uncompressed 10-bit 4:2:2 1080 60p, the ProRes compression is 8:1, purely intraframe. Based on the previous paragraph's estimates, the intraframe compression of ProRes is comparable to the intraframe compression of the Panasonic HDC-TM700. This implies that the huge 9x or 10x increase in file size when transcoding the HDC-TM700 to ProRes is due to the elimination of all the interframe compression in the former. So it is a mistake to use ProRes LT transcoding with this original, because it will compromise the I-frames. There could even be a slight benefit to using ProRes HQ.

I'm voting with Panasonic and getting into 1080 60p (really 50p here) now, before affordable and less cheesy 1080 60p cameras become available. They surely will.

I wish never to be in K. Darvich's situation of having to intercut 30p footage having no interframe compression (shot with still camera) with 60p footage having high interframe compression (shot with Panasonic HDC-TM700). If the release will be 30p, the transcode from 60p to 30p should be better than that from 60i to 30p. But if the release will be 60i then the 30p footage should be transcoded 60i and the Panasonic HDC-TM700 camera can shoot 60i (in mode HA). If the release format is unknown or various, then shoot 60p and transcode the 30p to 60p, and edit so all cuts are at even frame numbers.


Return to posts index

gary adcock
Re: Workflow: 1080 60p from Panasonic HDC-TM700 camera
on Jul 13, 2010 at 1:43:35 pm

[Dennis Couzin] "Gary Adcock can't believe that the $1000 Panasonic HDC-TM700 shoots 1080 60p so he makes up a story about it line-doubling."

Actually Dennis, if you read the post over again I said I tested via hardware as part of a project I was working on.

For the record most of the consumer HDMI specifications include line doubling to allow for the HDMI's need for true progressive output when the incoming signal to the device is interlace, which is the case for all 1080 broadcast signal.

" FCP7 refuses to transcode the improper Panasonic AVCHD 1080 60p to ProRes 1080 60p)"

Could this be because the signal is not what it says it is? Or did you not properly configure your editor to handle the format.

I can and have done 1080 60p captures directly into FCP via a Kona 3 card from Professional HDCamSR master recorded from a Sony F23.

[Dennis Couzin] "Apple ProRes for 1080 60p uses 293 Mb/s. "

That does not correlate to any data thruput numbers I have for any released version of ProRes.

All ProRes flavors are measured in Mbps and the number you posted does not correspond to any of the published Apple numbers for the compression- If I remember correctly these are the data rates as published.

PR4444 @ 330Mbps,
PRHQ @ 220 Mbps
PRSQ @ 145Mbps
PRLT @ 100Mbps
PRPX @ 45 Mbps.


I state again that even at the high end, there is little or no support for handling 1080 60p content, which as a professional signal requires dual link HDSDI or 3G cabling and monitoring to accurately handle the image and most cameras that use this high a frame rates for doing offspeed capture and playback.


gary adcock
Studio37

Post and Production Workflow Consultant
Production and Post Stereographer
Technology Development
Quality Assurance Assistance

Chicago, IL

http://blogs.creativecow.net/24640



Return to posts index

Dennis Couzin
Re: Workflow: 1080 60p from Panasonic HDC-TM700 camera
on Jul 13, 2010 at 4:17:04 pm

Gary, I'm afraid you are confusing output/transmission (e.g. HDMI) where line doubling is reasonable, with recording (e.g. this Panasonic camera's) where line doubling is insane. This Panasonic's 1080 60p recording is compromised, but not insane.

I will do further experiments to see why FCP7 does not "log and transfer" my 1080 50p AVCHD. It is likely that FCP7 finds the AVCHD improper, because it is (not in compliance with the AVCHD standard).

I said Apple ProRes for 1080 60p uses 293 Mb/s based on the Apple ProRes White Paper dated July 2009. That paper incidentally uses the notation "Mb/s" rather than your preferred "Mbps". The numbers you cite are almost exactly the White Paper's numbers for 60i. We're discussing 60p here, not 60i.

Interlaced video is a horrible relic of early television and CRT's, a blot on digital imaging which I'm glad Panasonic has lurched forward to eliminate at the popular end of the user scale.


Return to posts index


gary adcock
Re: Workflow: 1080 60p from Panasonic HDC-TM700 camera
on Jul 14, 2010 at 12:02:29 am

[Dennis Couzin] "Gary, I'm afraid you are confusing output/transmission (e.g. HDMI) where line doubling is reasonable, with recording (e.g. this Panasonic camera's) where line doubling is insane."

No I am not, you are not seeing the whole picture. I will ask you the same that I asked the original poster before you chose to call me a liar.

Have you ever worked with 1080 50P/ 60P material captured in the conventional manner using a professional camera and recording system?

As I said in the original posts cameras that have that ability are not something that is available to everyone. Hell the deck or recorder rental alone is usually more per day than the cost of this camera. Please realize that in the broadcast world this format is virtually non-exisitant and it requires a dual link or 3G connectivity to handle correctly.


" said Apple ProRes for 1080 60p uses 293 Mb/s based on the Apple ProRes White Paper dated July 2009."

First off all 5 flavors of ProRes support 1080 @ 60fps, That number you mention is irrelevant without first defining which of the flavors of ProRes you are recording too, as that is the median average data compression level under VBR for the 4444 codec which has a maximum of 330 Mbps- whereas the ProRes Proxy codec averages about 39 Mbps but maxes at 45 Mbps.

"The numbers you cite are almost exactly the White Paper's numbers for 60i. We're discussing 60p here, not 60i. "

The compression level of a codec like ProRes does not change with the type of data being sent it, and there for negates that part the argument- the codec compression only scales with the type of codec-not with the content inside.

1080 60p 10bit Uncompressed runs at approx. 331 MBps (megabytes per second) and can only be captured over dual link or 3G
ProRes HQ at 1080 60p runs at about 61 MBps and can be captured over dual or single link.


None of this will work correctly unless your editor is setup to handle the content correctly.






gary adcock
Studio37

Post and Production Workflow Consultant
Production and Post Stereographer
Technology Development
Quality Assurance Assistance

Chicago, IL

http://blogs.creativecow.net/24640



Return to posts index

Dennis Couzin
Re: Workflow: 1080 60p from Panasonic HDC-TM700 camera
on Jul 14, 2010 at 3:59:04 pm

You ask: "Have you ever worked with 1080 50P/ 60P material captured in the conventional manner using a professional camera and recording system?"

Answer: Certainly not, and your example is irrelevant to the Panasonic HDC-TM700's H.264 compressed 1080 60p material. Your example does not define 1080 60p. The fact that renting just a part of your example for one day costs as much as the HDC-TM700 is irrelevant to the question whether the little camera records and outputs genuine 1080 60p. Don't you accept that there can be H.264 compressed 1080 60p?

It is amazing that after I point out your 60p/60i error concerning data rates you still object to my original simple statement:
"Apple ProRes for 1080 60p uses 293 Mb/s".
Now you object that I didn't specify which of the 5 flavors of ProRes was meant. Apple's ProRes White Paper of July 2009 names the 5 flavors:
"ProRes 422 (Proxy)"
"ProRes 422 (LT)"
"ProRes 422"
"ProRes 422 (HQ)"
"ProRes 4444"
By "ProRes" I meant ProRes 422. You prefer to call this "PRSQ".

OK then my original statement becomes:
"Apple PRSQ for 1080 60p uses 293 Mb/s".
You believe this should be 145 Mbps. Again, you are mixing the 60p ProRes compression rates with 60i rates. They are in separate rows in the table of Target Data Rates in the White Paper, and the 60p rates are virtually double the 60i rates.

But you assert:
"The compression level of a codec like ProRes does not change with the type of data being sent it, and there for negates that part the argument- the codec compression only scales with the type of codec-not with the content inside."

Not at all. ProRes is a frame-by-frame or a field-by-field codec depending on whether the video is 60p or 60i. If it is 1080 60p the frames have 1080 horizontal rows of pixels. If it is 1080 60i the fields have just 540 horizontal rows of pixels. Then of course the ProRes compression (of a given degree, dependent on the flavor) yields approximately twice the data rate for 60p as for 60i. (I say approximately because the ProRes codec can apportion its compression between the horizontal and the vertical a little differently in the two cases.) When transcoding from, say, H.264 video, H.264 decoding produces the 60 frames or fields to which the ProRes coding is applied.

Read the White Paper at
http://images.apple.com/br/finalcutstudio/docs/Apple_ProRes_White_Paper_Jul... ,
especially the Appendix.


Return to posts index

gary adcock
Re: Workflow: 1080 60p from Panasonic HDC-TM700 camera
on Jul 14, 2010 at 9:19:34 pm

[Dennis Couzin] "You ask: "Have you ever worked with 1080 50P/ 60P material captured in the conventional manner using a professional camera and recording system?"
Answer: Certainly not, and your example is irrelevant to the Panasonic HDC-TM700's H.264 compressed 1080 60p material. "


No it is not. Not in my world, it is absolutely required for the kinda of clients I have and the work I do for them.

If you don't understand how actual 1080 50/60p content is supposed to work in the professional sense, based on the real tools that were designed to handle this format- how do you know that what you are doing is accurate?
Just because some manufacturer puts something in a manual something is does not make it so, I need go no farther that P vs PsF.

I compared the camera we tested it to a known standard, using industry standard signal test equipment and from what I saw from that camera did not pass my standard for quality as compared to the "a" cameras that it needed to be matched up against.

"It is amazing that after I point out your 60p/60i error concerning data rates you still object to my original simple statement: "

Since you did not cite the Appendix in your initial reference- I mistook what you were saying.
I was trying to explain that the maximum compression in ProRes 4444 is 330Mbps per channel and averages slightly under that, since 444 and 60p Variframe (as 422) are only carried over 2 physical channels (hence the reason its called dual link)

[Dennis Couzin] "But you assert:
"The compression level of a codec like ProRes does not change with the type of data being sent it, and there for negates that part the argument- the codec compression only scales with the type of codec-not with the content inside."
Not at all. ProRes is a frame-by-frame or a field-by-field codec depending on whether the video is 60p or 60i."


I disagree- the frame and or field rate has absolutely nothing to do with the compression level of an individual codec, especially not when you are talking about a variable bit rate codec that is designed to never exceed the maximum allowable compression.


gary adcock
Studio37

Post and Production Workflow Consultant
Production and Post Stereographer
Technology Development
Quality Assurance Assistance

Chicago, IL

http://blogs.creativecow.net/24640



Return to posts index

Dennis Couzin
Re: Workflow: 1080 60p from Panasonic HDC-TM700 camera
on Jul 16, 2010 at 12:30:17 am

[gary adcock]: "If you don't understand how actual 1080 50/60p content is supposed to work in the professional sense, based on the real tools that were designed to handle this format- how do you know that what you are doing is accurate?"
With your notions of "actual", "supposed to", "professional sense", "real tools", and "accurate" you are cutting yourself off from an elegant little camera and from the future. The future of video is file-based rather than signal-based. How file data is transported is less and less important as buffer size increases.

[gary adcock]: "Just because some manufacturer puts something in a manual something is does not make it so, I need go no farther that P vs PsF."
This continues your insinuation that the HDC-TM700's 1080 60p is not really 1080 60p. How can we ever be sure that a camera is shooting and 60p rather than:
(A) shooting 60i and outputting it as 60i but with an instruction to the decoder to apply a nice (time flow) deinterlacing?
or
(B) shooting 60i and outputting it as 60p after a nice (time flow) deinterlacing?
We can eliminate possibility (A) by examining the H.264 file, but this does not eliminate possibility (B).

One way to be sure that the camera is shooting 60p is to aim it at target consisting of fine enough detail changing fast enough that either the camera sees with 1080 lines before there is change or it doesn't. The target can be a single image illuminated by a flashlamp. Either all of its detail (down to 1/1080 of the frame height) is captured in a frame, or only half of its detail (down to 1/1080 of the frame height) is captured in a field. The "rolling shutter" effect of this camera's CMOS sensors can be ignored since it is enough to examine a few neighboring lines to make the determination.

Since I don't doubt Panasonic's claim that the HDC-TM700 shoots 1080 60p (which is not just printed 50 times in the manual but also printed on the camera body beside a dedicated button) I'm not going to do the experiment. Maybe some readers have a teenager seeking a science fair project.

[gary adcock]: "Since you did not cite the Appendix in your initial reference- I mistook what you were saying."
The only places the White Paper gives data rates are in the Appendix and in two graphs. The graphs give data rates only for 23.976 fps and for 29.97 fps. So how did you find your 60i data rates? They look like the 29.97 fps data rates, which of course they should, contrary to your final argument. For 1080x1920 for each ProRes flavor the 30p data rate equals the 60i data rate and is half the 60p data rate. This is simple and should not be obfuscated.


Return to posts index

gary adcock
Re: Workflow: 1080 60p from Panasonic HDC-TM700 camera
on Jul 16, 2010 at 2:01:05 pm


I am sorry that you do not seem understand that we are in totally different worlds.
I am glad the tool fits your needs, that was not my experience with the camera.

I keep referring to professional standards and the needs for mainstream, you bring up codecs and rolling shutter to obfuscate the issue I keep repeating.

You have never worked in a "Real" version of 60p by your own admission, so you assume what you are seeing is accurate, even though you have no accurate frame of reference to learn from.

it is as simple as you do not want to understand or accept that 1080 60p is PsF not P or that by you own admission your "60p" content will not correctly import into FCP ?

What the camera's imager does is a wholly separate issue from how that content is captured or delivered to a display device.



gary adcock
Studio37

Post and Production Workflow Consultant
Production and Post Stereographer
Technology Development
Quality Assurance Assistance

Chicago, IL

http://blogs.creativecow.net/24640



Return to posts index

Chris Wiggles
Re: Workflow: 1080 60p from Panasonic HDC-TM700 camera
on Aug 10, 2010 at 2:38:33 am

[gary adcock] "
I am sorry that you do not seem understand that we are in totally different worlds.
I am glad the tool fits your needs, that was not my experience with the camera.

I keep referring to professional standards and the needs for mainstream, you bring up codecs and rolling shutter to obfuscate the issue I keep repeating.

You have never worked in a "Real" version of 60p by your own admission, so you assume what you are seeing is accurate, even though you have no accurate frame of reference to learn from.

it is as simple as you do not want to understand or accept that 1080 60p is PsF not P or that by you own admission your "60p" content will not correctly import into FCP ?

What the camera's imager does is a wholly separate issue from how that content is captured or delivered to a display device."


I'm sorry, but you are mistaken about this entirely.

This panasonic camera affirmatively DOES capture, record, AND output native 1080p60 content.

Additionally, it also captures, records, AND outputs 1080i60, and 1080p24 within a 2:3 60i wrapper (not native 24p frames in a 24p format, but functionally equivalent if properly IVT'd).

The 1080p60 mode of this camera is 1080p60. Period. It is not PsF, it is not line-doubled 60i, it is not scaled 60i, it is not some kind of "fake" 1080p60 as opposed to your insinuations about "real" 1080p60 or some other format altered to a 60p container. It is native 1080p60, from capture to output format.

FCP does not recognize the non-standard AVCHD compression method that panasonic is using internally to the camera for 60p. For this reason, Panasonic includes software for windows (only windows) to convert this to other editable formats, etc. If you're on a mac, you have to find your own workaround, which is where clipwrap and other workflows come into play to create a proper 60p ProRes editable video file which you can then edit in 60p within FCP without any issue. And it most certainly is 1080p60. FCP isn't confused, the file isn't mis-tagged, or otherwise screwed up. It is 60p. Period.

The filesizes and bitrates used for 1080p60 capture in the camera are ~twice larger than 1080i60, again due to inherently twice the data rate of 1080p60 versus 1080i60.

Your claim that this camera simply doesn't shoot 60p and that panasonic (and dozens of camera reviewers and users) is lying about that is absolutely false. Whether you had the camera properly in 60p mode and playback mode I do not know.

It is true that this is not a broadcast quality production camera. It has many many artifacts, and many obstacles if one wanted to use this in professional production. However, that is entirely unrelated to the question of whether it does, in fact: capture, record, AND output 1080p60 content, natively. It does do this, as a matter of objective, verifiable fact.

Your claims that it is simply line-doubled 60i, or 30PsF, or otherwise is not 60p is simply erroneous.


To the original poster:
"I was assuming Panasonic's claim was correct because in the FCP browser the rewrapped footage is listed as 1080, 60fps and progressive. I must say this is all very confusing. Should I "convert" the files to what Final Cut knows to be 60i ?"

Panasonic and FCP and clipwrap and quicktime are all correct. The re-wrapped file *is* 1080p60 and should be left like that in FCP unless you need some other output format, in which case it would probably be better to leave that to compressor on output to say 1080p30 for vimeo or youtube or whatnot, or 1080i60 for a distributable format via BD, etc.

Mr. Dennis Couzin is correct in his statements on these topics.


Return to posts index

gary adcock
Re: Workflow: 1080 60p from Panasonic HDC-TM700 camera
on Aug 10, 2010 at 2:04:27 pm

[Chris Wiggles] "I'm sorry, but you are mistaken about this entirely."

Mr Wiggles,

please tell us all how you determined this? I tested the camera's output based on SMPTE standards and found that it did not match the SMPTE specifications (both 372M and 425M) for 1080p60.
How did you determine your findings?

With only 3 posts here on the Cow (all within a few hours) and 2 of them attacking my posts on one subject, please why not tell us who you are and about your knowledge base so that we can better ascertain and judge your information.

I stand by my comments and statements.

gary adcock
Studio37

Post and Production Workflow Consultant
Production and Post Stereographer
Chicago, IL

http://blogs.creativecow.net/24640



Return to posts index

Chris Wiggles
Re: Workflow: 1080 60p from Panasonic HDC-TM700 camera
on Aug 10, 2010 at 7:01:29 pm

[gary adcock] "Mr Wiggles,

please tell us all how you determined this? I tested the camera's output based on SMPTE standards and found that it did not match the SMPTE specifications (both 372M and 425M) for 1080p60."


Mr Adcock:

You stated previously that you had 'tested' this camera's output, and that 1080p60 "required" HD-SDI or 3G. I'm not sure why you would state the latter, since SDI-based interfaces are simply one way of dealing with video, and surely not the only way of transmitting HD formats including 1080p60 specifically. Further, I fail to see the relevance of 372M or 425M which define HD-SDI & 3G. This camera has no SDI capabilities whatsoever, so the relevance of SDI standards evades me. Its digital output is limited to USB file transfer from internal or card-based memory, or via HDMI video output on playback. I entirely fail to understand why you keep bringing up SDI standards which are not applicable here.

Further, you did not state what you tested, or your methodology. Many users of this camera have been shooting and playing back in 1080p60, and editing 1080p60 files via their NLEs. I have primarily been shooting in 1080i60 mode for entirely non-critical work and web distribution. However 1080p60 worked just fine as well, but is a more difficult workflow because you cannot log and transfer right off the camera as you can with the complaint AVCHD 1080i60 content.

In addition, you can examine the Panasonic specifications directly on the Panasonic website, and the distinctions are extremely clear:

RECORDING & PLAYBACK
Signal System 1080 / 60p, 1080 / 60i

Video Recording Format
1080 / 60p : MPEG-4 AVC/H.264 (original format)
HA / HG / HX / HE : MPEG-4 AVC/H.264
(AVCHD standard compliant)

Recording Mode
1080 / 60p (28Mbps / VBR) , (1920 x 1080)
HA (17Mbps / VBR) , (1920 x 1080)
HG (13Mbps / VBR) , (1920 x 1080)
HX (9Mbps / VBR) , (1920 x 1080)
HE (5Mbps / VBR) , (1920 x 1080)

Playback Mode 1080 / 60p (28Mbps / VBR) , (1920 x 1080)
HA (17Mbps / VBR) , (1920 x 1080)
HG (13Mbps / VBR) , (1920 x 1080)
HX (9Mbps / VBR) , (1920 x 1080)
HE (5Mbps / VBR) , (1920 x 1080)


As you can see in the specifications above, when the camera is placed explicitly into the 1080p60 capture mode, it uses a proprietary compression mode which is why FCP can't handle that content directly as it can with the 1080i60 modes all of which are AVCHD compliant (at various bitrates as desired). And as one would expect of course, when you record at 1080p60, your available record time is about half as much as at 1080i60, because obviously you're using roughly twice the data rate.

You can see frame-grabs of both modes here if you wish:

http://www.genkosha.com/vs/images/pana_river_p.html
http://www.genkosha.com/vs/images/pana_river_i.html

http://www.genkosha.com/vs/images/pana_waraji.html
http://www.genkosha.com/vs/images/pana_waraji_i.jpg


The first image is progressive the latter is interlaced, respectively in each pair, as you can see on motion. The interlaced is a simple weaved-frame, which is not temporally accurate of course, but is for illustration. The images come from here:

http://www.genkosha.com/vs/report/entry/tm700108060p.html

Web playback is obviously not really indicative of actual video performance of course, but here is an entire group dedicated to various 1080p60 capable consumer cameras. You can download the raw files on several of these clips to examine them yourself and see that they are indeed 1080p60:

http://vimeo.com/groups/native1920x108060pclips



With only 3 posts here on the Cow (all within a few hours) and 2 of them attacking my posts on one subject, please why not tell us who you are and about your knowledge base so that we can better ascertain and judge your information.


Sir, I apologize if my posts appeared to be attacking, that was not my intention in any way. However, your claim that consumer cameras simply inherently cannot support 1080p60 is bizarre, particularly given that such cameras do exist and are readily purchasable. The Panasonic TM700 is one such camera which unequivocally supports 1080p60 capture and output, and not with any funny business.

Now, as I'm sure you know, the quality of a camera, including its *real* effective resolution as determined more thoroughly by MTF may be very different from the sort of pixel-counting resolution claim of the sensor, the record format, or the manufacturer. Clearly not all 1080 cameras have the same real-world resolution, and this changes too based on any changing optics as you well recognize. I don't disagree with your criticisms of this camera that you made above in terms of its performance issues, but keep in mind it is simply a ~$1K consumer camcorder. We may agree or disagree about subjective concerns as to the look or usability of the camera, etc, but there are many objective facts that are not really up for debate. And one objective-reality observation is that this camera does in fact capture and record video natively at 1920x1080p60. I fail to see why you would argue otherwise, or what you have to gain by maintaining that opinion when it is readily answered by consulting the camera specifications or any number of articles or discussions written about this particular camera. There are indeed far cheaper cameras still that record 1080p60. Yes, it is mindboggling that so much horsepower can fit in such a small device, but imagine just five or ten years ago we would all laugh at the idea of a 1080i60 camera costing so little and being widely available to consumers, and it's not a small stretch to get to 1080p60, particularly given the entry-level Canon T1i DSLR (out a year ago, for just several hundred dollars) shoots 1080p20 and it's not even a video camera!

As for myself, I am rather new to video production, and I have followed the Cow for a short while in my attempt to learn more about techniques on the production side of things. But I have been involved in video engineering and color science for quite some time, and am very familiar with various video formats. It is not an enormously obscure thing to ascertain in which formats a camera actually captures and records. And in this case, it is very straightforward. It's even a 3-chip camera, so there is no fudging of say total sensor resolution before being de-bayered as you find with RED specifications for instance. But again, as you well know, the record 'resolution' has no bearing on anything but that particular figure, it doesn't really say much about the quality of the camera itself. Simply because it records at what is ostensibly a more-capable format than a 1080i60 camera has no bearing at all on the quality of that recording, particularly given the absence of any feasible 1080p60 distribution method.

But there are scores of discussions and examples online comparing the 1080p60 mode versus the 1080i60 mode of this camera. Not all, of course, are trustworthy but many are. If you have some revolutionary claim as to some other nefarious tactic deployed by Panasonic to create a fake 1080p60 format wasting twice as much space simply as a marketing ploy, I'm curious to hear it, but the claim that the camera simply doesn't shoot 1080p60 just because you don't believe that it can is an untenable statement absent any rigorous evidence.

Regards,
-Chris


Return to posts index

gary adcock
Re: Workflow: 1080 60p from Panasonic HDC-TM700 camera
on Aug 10, 2010 at 11:35:33 pm

[Chris Wiggles] "However, your claim that consumer cameras simply inherently cannot support 1080p60 is bizarre, particularly given that such cameras do exist and are readily purchasable. "

as I stated here:
http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/8/1095041
if you do not understand the nature of what the signal was engineered to do, how can you expect to understand the whether what you are working with is correct or not?

"I don't disagree with your criticisms of this camera that you made above in terms of its performance issues, but keep in mind it is simply a ~$1K consumer camcorder. "

Yes I understand that and even given such a low price point, I still tested the camera using industry standard tools for testing and analysis.
http://www.tek.com/Measurement/App_Notes/indexes/video_audio/registration/?...

You, by your own admission, tell us that you are new to the video world, I on the other hand am not.

I have never said that this camera did not take acceptable images- I stated that my testing showed that the camera was not outputting what SMPTE decides is a proper 60p signal, and that the signal i tested on an early camera model was a 60i signal that was line doubled- a common occurrence with the earlier HDMI consumer specifications, not the later 1.3a and 1.4 HDMI specs.

I did not trust my eyes, apples antiquated quicktime player or even FCP to handle that footage, just like I doctor I ran tests understanding what the baseline is, using tools designed to provide critical analysis of baseband video.

Since I have worked with virtually all of the current professional camera systems that can properly produce a recording at 1080 60p, my knowledge and client base force me to be more critical than others. I do not rely on ANY camera mfg's specs for anything more than an assumption that it is correct, but I also know that specs written for a camera that sells for $1000 are not exactly written or even proofed by engineers, but more likely by some marketing intern.

I test a great many cameras and lenses, this camera did not meet my criteria in producing a proper signal that could be recorded according to the 1080p60 specifications for the work that I do, and as I told the last poster here- I am glad that this camera works for you and your needs, it is not up to my standards and expectations for what 1080p60 is supposed to be.

gary adcock
Studio37

Post and Production Workflow Consultant
Production and Post Stereographer
Chicago, IL

http://blogs.creativecow.net/24640



Return to posts index

Chris Wiggles
Re: Workflow: 1080 60p from Panasonic HDC-TM700 camera
on Aug 11, 2010 at 12:23:33 am

[gary adcock] "
as I stated here:
http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/8/1095041
if you do not understand the nature of what the signal was engineered to do, how can you expect to understand the whether what you are working with is correct or not?"


Sir:

Now you are simply attacking my credibility, and entirely ignoring the camera specifications, framegrabs, and example clips that I referenced for you and for anyone else to test and examine entirely on their own without my (or your) credibility at all relevant.

I fully understand the nature of 1080p60 video, and have been intimately involved with video for many years. Your accusations here as to my lack of understanding of video formats is grossly misplaced. And anyway, it is irrelevant to the discussion of directly testable fact.



Yes I understand that and even given such a low price point, I still tested the camera using industry standard tools for testing and analysis.


By what methods? Using what tools? This was asked of you before. You continue to reiterate 'SDI'-based SMPTE standards which are of no relevance to anything here. What that has anything to say about whether the video is native 1080p60 or scaled 1080p60 from some other quality of source is entirely beyond me. You could have entirely compliant HD-SDI or 3G signals at 1080p60 that derived previously from 480i60, or anything. What does that have to do with anything at all?

You did not describe your workflow. At this point, I'm not certain you even understood how to operate the camera and extract 1080p60 content, as it is not straightforward with this camera. You have stated nothing about how you ascertained that the camera is somehow doing something other than what is stated explicitly in specifications which have been challenged by no video professionals anywhere except for yourself.

I am rightly skeptical of many claims by manufacturers just as you are, but I have absolutely no reason whatsoever to believe (and have seen absolutely no evidence at all to support) a claim that Panasonic is lying about this camera's capabilities which have been quite openly tested by many individuals around the world. I linked you to just a couple examples, feel free to web-search on your own because there are many more.


You, by your own admission, tell us that you are new to the video world, I on the other hand am not.


Sir, this is not a fair statement at all, nor accurate. You immediately questioned my credibility because of my new registration at this forum, which is a tired tactic. I explained, accurately, that I have been deeply involved with video for many years, but am new to the production side of things, hence I am new to this particular forum in my desire to learn new aspects of video and learn to create my own content. I read Poynton's tome many years ago(among others) and have been re-reading it ever since. Nobody knows everything there is to know about video, and I find your arrogance and secrecy here unpleasant and unfortunate. Everyone here is here to learn and to share knowledge. Parroting misinformed facts about something as inocuous as a camera's objective recording format and capabilities is unproductive behavior.


I have never said that this camera did not take acceptable images- I stated that my testing showed that the camera was not outputting what SMPTE decides is a proper 60p signal, and that the signal i tested on an early camera model was a 60i signal that was line doubled- a common occurrence with the earlier HDMI consumer specifications, not the later 1.3a and 1.4 HDMI specs.


By what method did you ascertain this? Did you record in 1080p60 mode? Did you know how to accomplish this with this camera? Were you able to extract the 1080p60 content natively and not a re-process from inside the camera of a 1080i60 output? All of these things are entirely reasonable mistakes that anyone could make with this particular camera, and which are not obviously apparent. I still have no idea by what method you claim to have ascertained that the content was 1080i60, or with what tools. Your earlier statements about SMPTE standards with reference HD-SDI and 3G seem to imply that maybe you fed these signals to a compatible scope or other comparable device perhaps? But the number of steps to attain such an output format requires a number of steps far removed from the camera itself that are fraught with peril and susceptibility to user error. It is entirely unclear what it is that you did, since you refuse to elucidate that.

And yet again you continue to forward the strange claim that somehow early iterations of HDMI did not support 1080i60, or otherwise there was some common difficulty of 1080i60 in/out on HDMI devices which would require the camera not only to scale to 1080p60, but to record that scaled version and waste twice the storage capacity on the camera for this unheard of invented limitation of the HDMI interface which is not accurate. I would be happy to direct you to the HDMI specification, but it appears likely you would ignore that reference as well. I'm sure HDMI is wrong about their own specification, just as Panasonic is wrong about their own camera...


I did not trust my eyes, apples antiquated quicktime player or even FCP to handle that footage, just like I doctor I ran tests understanding what the baseline is, using tools designed to provide critical analysis of baseband video.

Since I have worked with virtually all of the current professional camera systems that can properly produce a recording at 1080 60p, my knowledge and client base force me to be more critical than others. I do not rely on ANY camera mfg's specs for anything more than an assumption that it is correct, but I also know that specs written for a camera that sells for $1000 are not exactly written or even proofed by engineers, but more likely by some marketing intern.

I test a great many cameras and lenses, this camera did not meet my criteria in producing a proper signal that could be recorded according to the 1080p60 specifications for the work that I do, and as I told the last poster here- I am glad that this camera works for you and your needs, it is not up to my standards and expectations for what 1080p60 is supposed to be.


Well sir, quite frankly, given your complete inability to answer what you tested, how, and with what, I cannot say that I trust you at all given the fact that the web is filled with 1080p60 videos shot with this very camera, and I have shot small amounts of 1080p60 with it myself.

If you tell me that the sky is bright pink, and continue to reiterate that you performed rigorous tests using tools designed for critical analysis but can't say what those tools were, how you did such a test, and what you found, then your claims are hardly worthy of any deference. I hope you understand that the scientific process involves some rigor and openness, and if you performed some unknown test that according to you clearly contradicts what has been claimed openly by Panasonic (unchallenged by no one save for yourself), and what has been tested by scores of individuals, then that is a fairly serious result. Such a finding is worthy of examination, and is very important for others to know who may intend to deploy this camera because of its 1080p60 capability. If that capability is a lie, then that should be known, and I encourage you to go forward with that claim. But not simply based on your word about some mysterious test using unknown equipment, with unknown persons who may or may not have had any idea what they were doing, using an entirely unknown workflow with zero openness or disclosure for review by one's peers.

Regards,
-Chris


Return to posts index

gary adcock
Re: Workflow: 1080 60p from Panasonic HDC-TM700 camera
on Aug 11, 2010 at 1:37:31 pm

[Chris Wiggles] "Now you are simply attacking my credibility,"

Like you are not attacking my credibility?
By your own admission you are a newbie, both here on the Cow and as a video user?


"entirely ignoring the camera specifications, framegrabs, and example clips that I referenced for you and for anyone else to test and examine entirely on their own without my (or your) credibility at all relevant."

Correct- why would I take an unknown entity such as a first time poster and admitted newbie and trust my livelyhood on your word?
Better yet why would I trust anyone else's random files posted on the internet?
Where are YOUR files?
Where are YOUR Test results?


"By what method did you ascertain this? Did you record in 1080p60 mode? Did you know how to accomplish this with this camera?"

You obviously ignored my link to the Tektronix signal testing link I posted last time.

I test all signal path processing using industry standard diagnostic and analytic HARDWARE from both Leader Instruments (LV 5800, LV 5750 and a Phabix signal tester on loan) and various Tektronix units based on SMPTE specs for baseband video. I also used Aja's Hi53G and HA53G converters to handle the HDMI x HDSDI conversion process, so that I was able to pass the baseband video signal out of the camera, just like I would with any other camera being tested for signal analysis.


"I have shot small amounts of 1080p60 with it myself."

ROTFLMAO
so a camera newbie also? http://magazine.creativecow.net/article/camera-and-lens-roundup

Your naiveté regarding how and why real cameras do what they do does little belay the fact that I am happy that this camera worked for you.

This camera did not pass what I required of it, but please be my guest to continue to call me a liar when you have naught to show, nor much if experience with this camera or for that matter any other camera that might actually be able to shoot 1080p60 as the specification is defined and I will assume that the over $1000 per day rental on the professional level cameras that shoot 60p are beyond your budget.

gary adcock
Studio37

Post and Production Workflow Consultant
Production and Post Stereographer
Chicago, IL

http://blogs.creativecow.net/24640



Return to posts index

Chris Wiggles
Re: Workflow: 1080 60p from Panasonic HDC-TM700 camera
on Aug 11, 2010 at 6:51:22 pm

[gary adcock] "
Like you are not attacking my credibility?
By your own admission you are a newbie, both here on the Cow and as a video user?"


Sir,

This is silly. I asked you for a specific workflow and specific methodology that you used to test this camera, and what you found.

You have yet to provide anything but a link to generic testing methods, and throw around some gear to which you have access.

You accuse me of being a newbie, a newcomer to video, or otherwise not understanding anything. Sir, you do not know me, my experience or my background. I have been involved with digital video and imaging for years. Your accusatory tone is a weak argumentative tactic, and in any case I am entirely uninterested in engaging in such ad-hominem arguments. I simply wish to clarify for the original poster of this thread the facts surrounding a specific capability of this camera.


Correct- why would I take an unknown entity such as a first time poster and admitted newbie and trust my livelyhood on your word?
Better yet why would I trust anyone else's random files posted on the internet?
Where are YOUR files?
Where are YOUR Test results?


That's why I linked you to several examples from multiple sources, and suggest you research on your own. This eliminates entirely whatever questions you may have of my credibility, which are anyway entirely misplaced.


You obviously ignored my link to the Tektronix signal testing link I posted last time.


That is absolutely correct. That explains absolutely nothing about what YOU tested, and how YOU tested it. We can play the generic google link game, or you can simply answer a straightforward question of WHAT and HOW you ascertained that Panasonic (and everyone else) is lying about this camera.


I test all signal path processing using industry standard diagnostic and analytic HARDWARE from both Leader Instruments (LV 5800, LV 5750 and a Phabix signal tester on loan) and various Tektronix units based on SMPTE specs for baseband video. I also used Aja's Hi53G and HA53G converters to handle the HDMI x HDSDI conversion process, so that I was able to pass the baseband video signal out of the camera, just like I would with any other camera being tested for signal analysis.


You're getting slightly warmer. Care to explain exactly what you did? Care to describe the exact chain, and what you looked at specifically, and how you even got the camera to shoot in 1080p60 mode and play back in that mode?


ROTFLMAO
so a camera newbie also? http://magazine.creativecow.net/article/camera-and-lens-roundup


Sir, I do not see the Panasonic TM700 in that article at all. Not relevant. I also don't see any camera testing occurring here. I see an industry professional at a trade show sharing informational statements from manufacturers in a summary article of new products.

Ironic that you would forward manufacturer information in a trusted way in this article, yet here you accuse Panasonic of lying about a camera without being able to provide an iota of evidence.


Your naiveté regarding how and why real cameras do what they do does little belay the fact that I am happy that this camera worked for you.


Sir, I have made absolutely no statements whatever about your so-called "real" cameras. How you reached this conclusion is beyond me. I do not appreciate the continued ad-hominem distraction.


This camera did not pass what I required of it, but please be my guest to continue to call me a liar when you have naught to show, nor much if experience with this camera or for that matter any other camera that might actually be able to shoot 1080p60 as the specification is defined and I will assume that the over $1000 per day rental on the professional level cameras that shoot 60p are beyond your budget.


And a nice swipe at another's presumed economic status as an indicator of their trustworthiness, to top it all off.

All I've really done is question how you ascertained that this camera doesn't do what it says it does. It's an entirely legitimate question. There are MANY products that don't do what they claim, and professionals ascertain this via testing and examination and measurement.

You can't even tell me what you tested, let alone how you tested it or what you found.

Instead, your "proof" that this camera does not shoot 1080p60 despite many references to the contrary essentially amounts to:
1) I am new to this forum
2) I am a newbie to video
3) I don't understand 'what the signal was engineered to do' whatever that means
4) I'm poor
5) that you've worked with lots of other cameras, therefore that means you understand this one

I'm sorry sir, but that simply doesn't get off the ground as being any kind of scientific evidence with any rigor at all. I've encountered many silly things in this industry over the years, but the "you don't know what you're talking about because you're poor" is a new one. Kudos.

Why don't you spend half as much time just addressing the substance of the question rather than attacking me personally, an individual with whom you have no experience at all and who you do not know.

I mean, no reader can even ascertain what exactly your claim IS! I can't even tell if you think it's really 1080i60, or line doubled 1080i60 to 1080p60, or scaled 1080i60, or 1080p30 as PsF at 'i60.'

Unless you wish to substantiate your claim with legitimate evidence rather than unrelated generalities, misinformed silliness about HDMI, and ad-hominem attacks, I will not pursue this any further. Other readers are free to read and will draw their own conclusions from your behavior, their own research, and the multiple links already posted.

I hope you learn to utilize a more collegial attitude and an intellectually honest willingness to provide open access and explanations to your testing methods in the future for your peers. Otherwise you foster distrust, negativity, and unproductive airs of secretive and inaccessible 'expertise.'

I wish you a better day on the morrow.

Regards,
Chris


Return to posts index

Chris Wiggles
Re: Workflow: 1080 60p from Panasonic HDC-TM700 camera
on Aug 10, 2010 at 7:06:53 pm

I also forgot this link with a large variety of original files in very short clips obviously due to size, that you can download which are shot at 60p (and 50p) as well:

http://hdcam.web-pda.info/

Regards,
-Chris


Return to posts index

Chris Wiggles
Re: Workflow: 1080 60p from Panasonic HDC-TM700 camera
on Aug 10, 2010 at 6:32:56 am

[gary adcock] "
For the record most of the consumer HDMI specifications include line doubling to allow for the HDMI's need for true progressive output when the incoming signal to the device is interlace, which is the case for all 1080 broadcast signal."


Sir, I do not know what on earth you mean here.

HDMI is a single specification defined by HDMI, that changes only with generations of HDMI versions.

HDMI has no need for progressive output, and fully supports a large variety of interlaced formats. I am not sure if you are confusing pixel-repetition for 480i over HDMI with line doubling. The two operations are unrelated, and quite distinct. HDMI has a minimum bandwidth, and video formats with rates below a certain threshold do pixel-repeat to reach the minimum bandwidth for HDMI operation. This has no impact on video quality, as the sink device (the destination, presumably a display, etc) simply discards the repeated data.

All modern digital displays will generally scale incoming signals to a progressive format as none but CRTs are capable of actual interlaced display. This has absolutely nothing to do with the HDMI specification. HDMI fully supports interlaced signal transmission. And if you have an HDMI-equipped CRT display you absolutely can output and receive un-altered 1080i60 broadcast content, and display that natively at 1080i60 on the CRT. In fact, I count SEVEN different 1080i rates supported by HDMI 1.3, which to my knowledge is not changed in 1.4, and has remained stable since 1.0. Only additional higher resolution formats such as 4K have been added in subsequent specifications, no removal of existing supported resolutions/rates. That many displays will process a 1080i signal, as they do all incoming signals to generally a 1080p60 rate for display has nothing whatsoever to do with the HDMI interface or HDMI specifications which thoroughly support 1080i at various rates. And 1080i is widely an acceptable input format via HDMI, in fact I believe it is required on all HDTVs by the FCC(I may be mistaken about this for input signals, but I have installed hundreds upon hundreds of TVs, and every single HDTV has supported 1080i via an HDMI input if an HDMI input was available. Quite a few older sets did not support 720p60, however.

This is something of an aside, but I fear you're are getting fairly confused in this discussion.

Bottom line: the panasonic TM700 camera DOES affirmatively capture, store, and output 1080p60. And there is no external reason why it couldn't that would have anything to do with HDMI, or that it would need to 'pad' 1080i60 content to 1080p60 simply for spec-compliance with HDMI. That is a vastly erroneous understanding of HDMI.


Return to posts index

Bob Beekman
Re: Workflow: 1080 60p from Panasonic HDC-TM700 camera
on Oct 7, 2010 at 7:04:42 pm

I really enjoyed your firm discussion on the shooting format of the Panasonic TM700-HS700 line. Could it be that you both are right?. The Panasonics do record in 60p (and here in Holland in 50p). Could it be that the camera recodes the signal to 50i before outputting through the HDMI port?
After transferring the files to my Mac, I do see 50 different frames in a second.


Return to posts index

gary adcock
Re: Workflow: 1080 60p from Panasonic HDC-TM700 camera
on Oct 8, 2010 at 9:22:04 pm

[Bob Beekman] "I really enjoyed your firm discussion on the shooting format of the Panasonic TM700-HS700 line. Could it be that you both are right?. The"

Hey bob,

You are correct, neither of the previous posters noted that I was trying to use the camera while recording to an external device and that was the reason all I got was interlace on output -and yes I do know that HDMI can support 60p- but the camera only delivers 60p as a file-NOT as video coming out of the camera.

Much like the GoPro Camera it can record internally at 60p- but the video output is something different.

gary adcock
Studio37

Post and Production Workflow Consultant
Production and Post Stereographer
Chicago, IL

http://blogs.creativecow.net/24640



Return to posts index

Bob Beekman
Re: Workflow: 1080 60p from Panasonic HDC-TM700 camera
on Oct 8, 2010 at 9:32:10 pm

Hi Gary,
Thanks for letting me know.
Regards,
Bob


Return to posts index

Corey Gemme
Re: Workflow: 1080 60p from Panasonic HDC-TM700 camera
on Jan 10, 2011 at 1:25:39 pm

So after all this my head is spinning!

So is the verdict that the Panasonic tm700 does do 6op?

Am I correct that I can turn 60i into 30p if I want?


Return to posts index

Chris Wiggles
Re: Workflow: 1080 60p from Panasonic HDC-TM700 camera
on Jan 10, 2011 at 7:12:24 pm

[Corey Gemme] " So after all this my head is spinning!

So is the verdict that the Panasonic tm700 does do 6op?

Am I correct that I can turn 60i into 30p if I want?"


Yes on both counts.

Note that turning 60i into 30p is in this instance simply deinterlacing with whatever tools you have at your disposal, with varying quality to match. This is different than filming at native 30p of course, which the tm700 does not support. You can record at 60p and then drop frames to 30p if you want which would be largely(but not totally) the same as filming at 30p.

Regards,
Chris


Return to posts index

Corey Gemme
Re: Workflow: 1080 60p from Panasonic HDC-TM700 camera
on Jan 10, 2011 at 9:04:09 pm

Thanks for getting back.

So just to clarify,

I'm assuming that 60p actually 60 distinct captures per second at obviously a 60th of a second or faster each?

In Gary's last post it sounds like he now knows because of the way he was using it, he was getting i signal instead of a p signal. And that he realizes that using the camera like a regular consumer that we would actually get a true p image, and not one where every other line was doubled. Is it possible that this p image however has every other line interpolated? Or is every one of the 1080 lines actually what the image sensor saw?

I guess Gary could verify this too I he'd like to chime in

On a sleightly different topic:

I also noticed on the Japanese website it compared the Panasonic with the Sony and the Panasonic looked sharper. Perhaps it was skewed just to sell the Panasonic. Anybody know of any other side by side comparisons between the Sony HDR-CX550V and the Panisonic?

Since at the moment it seems hard to work with 6op and I may have to do 30p output anyway My interest in the Panasonic right now is that it just looked like a crisper image. But that's maybe because the 60p setting forced a faster shutter speed than the Sony 30p example.

I'm okay with only 30p if it can give me slower shutter speeds to create a little motion blur which I actually don't mind in a movie. I used to shoot REGULAR 8mm when I was a kid! I remember when SUPER 8mm came out and it was the big new thing.

Could I combine or blend two 60p frames into one 30p frame to get a little motion blur back?

It seems that the apparent motion blur from converting 60i to 30p would come from the two i fields being not quite lined up and that a native 30p recording would look a little more natural with just one field and a longer shutter speed. Does this sound right?

If it is, I'm assuming that if I converted from 60p to 30p by dropping every other frame that the difference is that I would have 60th of a second shutter speeds or faster and it would be more jittery than if I just shot it at 30p and had longer shutter speeds to create a little motion blur to smooth things out.


One last thing:

Does anybody have the high capacity battery that doesn't fit onto the camera and uses a cable to hook up to it. How is that working out. Is it possible to cut and splice so it will? and do have to get a charger separately?

So many questions!

Thanks to anybody taking time with me on this.


Return to posts index

Rafael Amador
Re: Workflow: 1080 60p from Panasonic HDC-TM700 camera
on Jan 10, 2011 at 8:33:02 pm

[Corey Gemme] "So is the verdict that the Panasonic tm700 does do 6op?"
Sure, why not?
But the most I read of people shooting with that camera, the less reasons I see to go through that hassle.
I only see the pint if you are going to the BIG screen and you need a good slow-motion.
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


Return to posts index

Josh Bradley
Re: Workflow: 1080 60p from Panasonic HDC-TM700 camera
on Jan 14, 2011 at 11:12:34 pm

Here is some video I shot with the tm700 with a little color correct in color.

color had no problems with 60p or what ever you want to call it.







Return to posts index

Matt Heaven
Re: Workflow: 1080 60p from Panasonic HDC-TM700 camera
on Feb 14, 2011 at 9:21:34 pm

This thread is quite entertaining to say the least. There's a ton of technical info that just blew my brain all over the wall behind me here.

So after reading all of this stuff.... I still don't know which codec to transcode all my 1080p60p mts files to for use in FCP7.

I want to use 60p especially for slow motion stuff later on. I want the best image quality. I have a macbook pro i7 with 8gig of ram, so I'm hoping that my machine will be able to handle this stuff. I'm a newb to video editing and I just need to know what to transcode all my raw files to in order to get the best image quality out of the final product.

My final product goal is 2 fold. 1) to post stuff up on the inet to share with other people (i.e. youtube or vimeo). 2) to show people my final videos in high resolution on a big screen LCD style tv in 1080p. I just downloaded Toast Titanium 10 to transcode the mts files based upon several other blogs' recommendations. I still don't see any settings in FCP7 that would allow me to natively edit in 1080p60p. HEEEEEEEELP! If someone could walk me through what settings I need to change in FCP7 and what to transcode my files in so that it doesn't say that frames were skipped during playback, that would be great.

Also, as a side note, I would like to get a more professional 'film look' type knock off. I want my stuff to look as good as possible. I know there are several ways to go about doing this. I've read a lot about changing to 24fps and also using color correction to get the film look. Any help on this subject would be greatly appreciated also.

I'm over here in Baghdad right now with the Army and I'm getting all kinds of great raw footage, but I need some help with this folks. Otherwise that's all I'm going to have, raw footage.

Thanks for anyone's help in advance.


Return to posts index

Pete Carney
Re: Workflow: 1080 60p from Panasonic HDC-TM700 camera
on Mar 1, 2011 at 4:24:31 am

I have had a TM700 for 11 months now and can assure you that the TM700 records and stores 60 unique progressive frames per second.

The TM700 captures and compresses 60 unique progressive frames per second in standard avc/h.264, but it uses an unconvetional mpeg2 AVCHD transfer stream.

It is this combination that FCP and iMovie are incapible of deciphering. Here's a post from apple discussions on how to rewrap from mpeg2 to mp4 transfer stream without transcoding so that iMovie and FCP can log and transfer.

http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?messageID=13140172
"I created an Automator workflow to make it a simple drag-and-drop process. You can get it from my MobileMe public folder (http://public.me.com/catservant) and it's named Rewrap2M4V.app.

It requires you to get the ClipGrab application (http://clipgrab.de/download_en.html) because it uses the copy of ffmpeg embedded in ClipGrab's application bundle (it's the only up-to-date compiled copy I could find reasonably easily). ClipGrab must be installed in the /Applications folder in order for the workflow to work; the workflow itself can be installed anywhere.

Then, just drag and drop the .m2ts or .mts files onto Rewrap2M4V.app. The converted files will have the same name with a .m4v extension appended."

I'm sure there are newer pieces of software that you can buy to do this, but I happned to have the link to this one.

Cheers,
Pete


Return to posts index

Danny Hays
Re: Workflow: 1080 60p from Panasonic HDC-TM700 camera
on Mar 5, 2011 at 8:55:23 pm

FCP will not edit the native .mts 1080 60p files. But Sony Vegas Pro 8 and up, CS5's Premier and After Effects will and all 3 can render to 1080 60p mp4,and .WMV. The TM700 files are defently 1080 60p, reguardles of compression. There are no project or render presets for 1080 60p in any of these programs. You will need to make custom project and render settings for all 3 of them. With any of the NLEs I mentioned, I can Put an .mts file on the timeline with a custom project setting and see 60 perfect progressive frames per second.
As far as the proffesional 2K or 4K servers/editors, DVS makes several servers but they work with frame sequences containing .DPS or .TGA files, and range from 60 grand for a 2K to 125 grand for a 4K 60P server.
Danny Hays, Universal Studios FL.



Return to posts index

Gabriel Spaulding
Re: Workflow: 1080 60p from Panasonic HDC-TM700 camera
on Mar 13, 2011 at 4:55:42 pm

I have the same camera (HDC-TM700), same software (Toast 10 & Final Cut Studio). When you put your first clip into the Timeline and the dialog window pops up, just click "yes" to the question "set sequence settings to match clip settings?". Then you'll be editing at 60fps (59.94fps). This has been working for me. As far as which codec to use, I have found absolutely NO reason to use anything other than ProRes 422 for AVCHD footage. It's just not a high enough quality to warrant using anything else.

For a "film look", however, 60p is (perhaps) not the best idea. It looks great, but it's way too fluid to emulate film, which is only 24fps. You could try some "film effect" filters, of course, but I think the frame rate itself will prohibit an authentic film look. I don't recommend the "cinema mode" on the TM700, as the image quality drops significantly. Perhaps any of the other settings will work, since they'll shoot at 30fps, which is much closer to 24fps, but they'll be interlaced.

If you do choose to shoot 60p and still want to emulate a film look, I think the best option is to work with your camera settings. Shoot for shallow depth of field, for one. There are all kinds of sites that walk you through how to do this. The TM700 has a fair amount of control over the images shot, for a consumer camcorder. Use those settings and you'll really be getting your money's worth.

Good luck!


Return to posts index

Detlef Villerius
Re: Workflow: 1080 60p from Panasonic HDC-TM700 camera
on May 19, 2011 at 6:10:49 pm

excuse me if i missed something here.

I converted my HDC700 1080 50P files using Voltiac into either ProRes or H264 and imported them in Final Cut.

Dropped them on a 25 frames timeline and changed the speed to 50%
This should ceate a longer slowmotion clip, it does but:

not all frames are identical;
every other frame is the same as the one before, if this makes sense but it looks like this
112233445566....

any ideas on how to get this right anyone?

thanks in advance!


Return to posts index

Matt Heaven
Re: Workflow: 1080 60p from Panasonic HDC-TM700 camera
on Oct 14, 2011 at 9:39:02 am

I wish someone would answer your question Detlef.... I'm wondering this as well. Thanks everyone for your responses even though it's been months later. I accidentally forgot to check up on this thread before posting another one up, however I have more questions in the other post too :)


Return to posts index

gary adcock
Re: Workflow: 1080 60p from Panasonic HDC-TM700 camera
on Oct 14, 2011 at 2:43:39 pm

[Detlef Villerius] "I converted my HDC700 1080 50P files... imported them in Final Cut.
...Dropped them on a 25 frames timeline and changed the speed to 50% "


[Detlef Villerius] "not all frames are identical; every other frame is the same as the one before, if this makes sense but it looks like this112233445566.... "

Detlef.

This is the correct frame seq for a 25fps sequence slowed down 50%

A 50fps converted file should automaticly play at the 1/2 the speed of the original file, there are differences between how the file is handled in FCPX over FCP7

gary adcock
Studio37

Post and Production Workflow Consultant
Production and Post Stereographer
Chicago, IL

http://blogs.creativecow.net/24640



Return to posts index

Jason Borean
Re: Workflow: 1080 60p from Panasonic HDC-TM700 camera
on Nov 7, 2011 at 1:53:44 am

All I want to know is do one of you Techno-Geniuses have a simple answer to how do we set this camera to capture a flat Technicolor/Cinestyle type look for color grading?

I shoot with a Canon &D and the Panasonic TM700 and hope to match them up somewhat using my presets in Adobe Premier or After Effects.

Your help is greatly appreciated. I hope this is the right mix of people... "Professional" film makers are not looking for "baked in" color, etc...


Return to posts index

Richard Jacana
Re: Workflow: 1080 60p from Panasonic HDC-TM700 camera
on Feb 4, 2012 at 6:54:21 pm

Just picked this camera up second hand for $500. Has some nifty features but then when I attached it to my Mac and fired up FCP X it didn't appear as a camera and as we know silly FCP don't recognize 1080p 60 avchd footage.

So indeed clipwrap is the way to go, you end up with plain old mov files but be aware 1080p 60 files are HUGE when transcoded into ProRes, I use to use 720p 24 and this will be 28gb per hour now with 1080p 60 I am up to 132Gb per hour wow! I'm also pretty sure my brand new mac min dual core i7 struggles with the ProRes footage a little too as the data rate on 720p 24 is a mere 59Mbps vs 293mbps on 1080p 60 - not sure if this would make a difference but my understanding is higher data rate the beefier the machine you need for playback, even with ProRes.

Great little camera but be aware of the storage requirements and possible computer requirements.


Return to posts index

Yiorgos Papadopoulos
Re: Workflow: 1080 60p from Panasonic HDC-TM700 camera
on Jun 4, 2012 at 11:57:09 pm

Wow I'm so surpised that i read all the post and still I don't have the answer to this problem. I don't know if its me who skiped the propert post or if its no one who answerd properly a workflow for this camera or at least if its should be 422Hq, 422 or 422Lt the converded file.


Return to posts index

Danny Hays
Re: Workflow: 1080 60p from Panasonic HDC-TM700 camera
on Feb 9, 2013 at 3:48:17 am

Vegas, After Effects And Premier can edit 1080 60p from a Tm700. I have one and the 3D 750 I think the model is. They both absolutely capture 60 progressive frames per second. These programs can edit and render 1080 60p with custom project and render presets at that frame rate. The camera and these programs show 60progressive frames per second. You need an I7 or you will show stuttering.



Return to posts index

Detlef Villerius
Re: Workflow: 1080 60p from Panasonic HDC-TM700 camera
on Feb 9, 2013 at 10:36:30 am

well yes, they capture 60 frames alright, although i never got 60 identical frames p/s out of this camera, if you skip through the timeline frame by frame you will notice that every other frame is the same as the one next to it. maybe i am missing something.
anyway, by the time even my gopro does 60p..


Return to posts index

Danny Hays
Re: Workflow: 1080 60p from Panasonic HDC-TM700 camera
on Feb 9, 2013 at 6:55:17 pm

I have a 60p clip of a wakeboarder. I'll check it out whem i get home and see if it's doubling frames. I sought it is because it is buttery smooth.



Return to posts index

Danny Hays
Re: Workflow: 1080 60p from Panasonic HDC-TM700 camera
on Feb 10, 2013 at 12:05:15 am

I can open a Vegas project, set to 59.94 progressive interlace method, none. And zoom in and see 60 different perfect pictures per second. Now the timeline counter shows 30 but I get two different frames for each frame increment. Defiantly 1080 60p. just watch it straight from the HDMI out of the camera with some fast moving footage and you can see it clear as day.



Return to posts index

Danny Hays
Re: Workflow: 1080 60p from Panasonic HDC-TM700 camera
on Feb 10, 2013 at 12:09:00 am

I have never gotten FCP to do this though. I hate FCP. It's a Dinosaur!



Return to posts index

Rayner Guerra
Re: Workflow: 1080 60p from Panasonic HDC-TM700 camera
on Jun 1, 2013 at 2:32:50 am

Hello, how can i shot mi panasonic hdc tm700 in 24p, ?the setting. Thanks.


Return to posts index

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
© 2017 CreativeCOW.net All Rights Reserved
[TOP]