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FCP P2 workflow - Organization, Storage, and AVID migration

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Andrea Scott
FCP P2 workflow - Organization, Storage, and AVID migration
on May 26, 2010 at 8:12:36 pm

Hello,

I am working on a feature-length documentary and have some logistical questions concerning organization in FCP, and also possible migration from FCP into Avid.

Shooting for the project began on DVCPro-HD tapes and has since switched to P2 cards, mostly shooting on the HPX-170. We are shooting the project 720p24. Footage has been imported into FCP since the beginning and organized by date and subject. We are just getting to the meat of the shooting and really just beginning to think about best organization in FCP for editor and moving forward. I was just brought onto the project and am trying to facilitate all of this.

Some things to note: We are storing footage on 2TB G-RAID drives by G-Tech. We currently have 3 drives, with 3 back-ups. As of now, we have NOT been saving our .MXF files. I have been told this is a bad idea.

Disclaimer: I am new to P2 - been working with Canon HDV for a few years - hence the many questions and uncertainties.

Questions:
1. Should we be saving our .MXF Files?

2. What is the best practice you have found for naming reels? I was thinking of implementing reel names with the date and a number (ie 100526_001) - with reel number sequential for whole of project. I know from tape days, reel names were very important. Is this still the case with P2 technology?

3. What is the best practice you have found for naming files? Right now, most of the old footage still has the proprietary P2 file name (crazy mixture of letters and numbers). I know that if you change the file name in the Log & Transfer window, it will match that name on the hard drive with the .mov files. However, I'll need to go in and change file names in FCP for the older footage - this might make it hard to link footage back to hard drives if we need to reconnect. Thoughts? (FYI: We are saving mxf file names in Log Notes after we change them).

4. As I mentioned earlier, we are currently daisy-chaining 2-TB G-RAID hard drives for the edit. We will likely have somewhere between 10 and 16 TB in the end. I have been searching around for different suggestions for larger scale storage. A friend suggested SataMAX FX8 (http://www.promax.com/Solutions/SataMAXFX8/). I also found lots on this forum about the Evo2 HD 12 Bay Expando by Maxx Digital (http://maxxdigital.com/shop/index.php?cPath=132_131). Any suggestions?


5. There is a small chance we will work with an editor who uses Avid as opposed to FCP. Given that all of the files have been imported using Final Cut, and everything is currently organized in Final Cut - and given that we do NOT have original MXF files for everything that has been shot prior to this week - what would a move like this take? Is it even possible? I am assuming we'll have to download some kind of codec for Avid and/or possibly buy some special card to transfer footage. Any advice on whether this is possible is greatly appreciated.


I know this is a lot - any help is deeply appreciated!!

Andrea


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Scott Sheriff
Re: FCP P2 workflow - Organization, Storage, and AVID migration
on May 26, 2010 at 8:32:14 pm

Hi,
Have you not hired an editor yet?
If not, it is a real shame to wait until the last minute, a disaster in the making. Seems to be a lot of 'if' in your project. I would get the editor position filled and make a decision on platforms. Then, let the editor get the workflow organized.

Sorry this isn't actually answering your questions directly, but I think the scope of your questions indicate the need for an editor to be present on your project.

Scott Sheriff
Director
SST Digital Media
http://www.sstdigitalmedia.com


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Andrea Scott
Re: FCP P2 workflow - Organization, Storage, and AVID migration
on May 26, 2010 at 8:37:08 pm

Yes, agreed.

However, as things go in the independent documentary world, that process of picking an editor might be slow. We are still shooting and have not decided when we will start cutting yet - also a problem in terms of the editor's schedule.

So. Any jump-start I can get on all of this would be great, as a lot of the tasks will fall to me, or to my oversight. If it's easier - assume we will be cutting in Final Cut (this is 90% certain - the Avid migration question is mostly a peace of mind/what if we MUST switch question), and let me know your thoughts accordingly when/if you have the time.

THANKS!


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Shane Ross
Re: FCP P2 workflow - Organization, Storage, and AVID migration
on May 27, 2010 at 4:23:01 am

Well, you just about messed up in every way possible. Sorry to be blunt, but it needs to be said. Doing ANYTHING with the footage before you hired the editor wasn't wise. Because, editors have their own way of organizing footage, and most of them know the proper workflows for things, like tapeless P2...if you hire someone who is experienced with it. Sorry, but your lack of experience with it, and having gone forward with that lack has really made a mess of things.

[Andrea Scott] "1. Should we be saving our .MXF Files? "

Yes...oh dear lord YES. Do you capture footage from tapes then throw them away? Re-use them? I hope not. No, you backup the P2 cards to an archive drive...the FULL CARD structure. This now, is, in essence, you master tape. Archive this, back it up on two drives..something. This is all the footage you spent time and money getting. You should be treating it with kid gloves.

Please watch this tutorial: P2 Workflow with FCP 6

[Andrea Scott] "2. What is the best practice you have found for naming reels? I was thinking of implementing reel names with the date and a number (ie 100526_001) - with reel number sequential for whole of project. I know from tape days, reel names were very important. Is this still the case with P2 technology? "

Whatever helps you keep track of the footage. Personally, I label the cards either by project, then card number...so Andrew Jackson would be AJ001, AJ002...if A and B camera, AJ_A001, AJ_B001...etc. If for a series, or just generic footage, then by location and date. Los Angeles, May 26, 2010 would be LAX_052610...add an _A or _B for the camera. And YES, it is VERY important with tapeless media too.

[Andrea Scott] "3. What is the best practice you have found for naming files?"

Whatever works for you, to help you find and keep track of the footage. FCP attaches a global ID number to all the footage, and this doesn't change. So you can change the name when you import, or after you capture. FCP will know what links to what.

[Andrea Scott] "4. As I mentioned earlier, we are currently daisy-chaining 2-TB G-RAID hard drives for the edit. We will likely have somewhere between 10 and 16 TB in the end."

Do yourself a favor and don't. G-Raids are all RAID 0...NON-Protected. Meaning a drive dies, you lose everything. And without backups...that's hose you BIG TIME. No, you need to look into and invest in a RAID 5 or RAID 6 8-12 bay tower. MaxxDigital EVO HD series, or Caldigit HD ONE, or other reputable RAID manufacturer. And daisy chaining drives can get very unreliable after a few. Don't cheap out now. Not when you put yourself in a mess by not backing up your footage.

[Andrea Scott] "5. There is a small chance we will work with an editor who uses Avid as opposed to FCP. Given that all of the files have been imported using Final Cut, and everything is currently organized in Final Cut - and given that we do NOT have original MXF files for everything that has been shot prior to this week - what would a move like this take? Is it even possible?"

This is why you needed to keep the MXF files. Avid accesses them directly and then imports them in a far different way than FCP does. If you take the footage imported by FCP to an Avid system, it won't even be able to see the files to convert. The DVCPRO HD codec FCP uses only comes with FCP. Or you can get a third party decoder. Or you can install FCP on the Avid and then use the Avid to import the files as DNxHD...but that will take a lot longer than the direct consolidate of the original files, and you lose quality.

So I hope that you find an FCP editor, and that you back up all of your imported footage, so you have TWO copies of it.

Good luck.

Shane



GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Andrea Scott
Re: FCP P2 workflow - Organization, Storage, and AVID migration
on May 27, 2010 at 1:18:17 pm

Okay. Thank you. I sincerely appreciate the help - if not the berating.

In response: Yes, it would have been great to have an editor from the beginning, but when you are working for 2 years to raise the funds to actually make the film - while shooting for a few days here and there once you do get some money - it's very hard to hold off on doing anything with the footage (let alone hiring an editor) because you need to cut together that footage in order to get more money. Like I said, I just came onto the project, and this is the first time all of us are working with P2 - so, a little slack please.

Now, a few more questions in response: If we are changing file names (both in log & transfer and in the browser), will there be problems when/if we have to re-link to the now-being-saved mxf files? Or does the "Global ID" take care of this? (I can't remember from tape days, but I do recall problems with reconnecting media...)
Also, if we go in and starting changing reel names, etc. - are we also going to have problems reconnecting media? Granted, for the stuff from the past, we don't have the MXF files, so perhaps that's not as much of an issue. These areas are just a bit gray for me and again, we want to make the best decisions moving forward...

Thanks again. And yes, I have already seen your tutorial. Another watch would be a good idea, perhaps.


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Shane Ross
Re: FCP P2 workflow - Organization, Storage, and AVID migration
on May 27, 2010 at 6:08:23 pm

Well, you don't need to hire the editor for the full duration. But you needed to hire an editor to get you started, to show you the P2 workflow and just get you pointed in the right direction. ALWAYS consult with someone in post before you start. It is wise to do it even before you SHOOT. Because I have been on so many projects where the camera used isn't compatible with the desired editing system, or is so new that NO edit system supported it. Post is the last step to get the footage out the door, but since everything ultimately lands there, you need to consult with post before you shoot, to ensure things will go smoothly.

But that is for the future. The next project.

[Andrea Scott] "If we are changing file names (both in log & transfer and in the browser), will there be problems when/if we have to re-link to the now-being-saved mxf files? Or does the "Global ID" take care of this?"

The global ID takes care of this. BUT, you must use FCP for this. Once you transcode to Avid, that global ID can be lost. Timecode might be lost. Reel number too. It all gets reset. So at this point I think you are tied to FCP, so find an editor who knows FCP, or your Avid guy better bone up on FCP.

[Andrea Scott] "Also, if we go in and starting changing reel names, etc. - are we also going to have problems reconnecting media?"

Same answer as above. Global ID takes care of that.

Shane



GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: FCP P2 workflow - Organization, Storage, and AVID migration
on May 27, 2010 at 6:24:16 pm

Investing in MXF4mac will save you boat loads of time and disk space. Also, the MXF workflow can transfer right from FCP to Avid. You can also preserve the appropriate metadata, leaving Quicktime in the dust.

Jeremy


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Shane Ross
Re: FCP P2 workflow - Organization, Storage, and AVID migration
on May 27, 2010 at 6:43:38 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Investing in MXF4mac will save you boat loads of time and disk space"

How? Wrapping in QT takes up the same amount of space as the original MXF files when you shoot DVCPRO HD. And since you still need to copy the MXF files to a media drive, something that takes as long as L&T to QT does (OK, maybe a small smidgeon faster)...I don't see how it saves time nor space. Surely not a BOATLOAD. Not unless you are talking about AVCIntra in which case, wait, FCP doesn't have sequence settings for AVCI, so you need to use a ProRes timeline. And FCP 7 supports AVCI native, so again, just wrapping and copying to the media drive again...same time, same file size.

THe BIG advantage of MXF4MAC and P2 FLow is METADATA. It retains more metadata,and allows FCP to access that metadata, that importing into FCP does not allow.

[Jeremy Garchow] " Also, the MXF workflow can transfer right from FCP to Avid. "

If he had the original MXF files, which he does not.

[Jeremy Garchow] "You can also preserve the appropriate metadata, leaving Quicktime in the dust. "

Sorta. I use P2 Flow to make a Batch List for FCP...mapping the metadata to columns in FCP. Then I Batch Import, converting to QT files. Since I am on a SAN with multiple editors, and we don't want to pay for MXF4MAC for seven FCP systems.

Sorry jeremy, I disagree with these points. Time saving? How? You still need to copy the files to the media drive. And space savings? Not really. Same size, when you don't transcode.


Shane



GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: FCP P2 workflow - Organization, Storage, and AVID migration
on May 27, 2010 at 6:55:00 pm

[Shane Ross] "How? Wrapping in QT takes up the same amount of space as the original MXF files when you shoot DVCPRO HD. "

So now you have multiple copies of the MXF files and multiple copies of the QT files. When using MXF, you just have the MXF files and don't worry about the QT, or archiving the QT. Plus the MXF structure moves to Avid easier.

[Shane Ross] "And since you still need to copy the MXF files to a media drive, something that takes as long as L&T to QT does (OK, maybe a small smidgeon faster)"

It's faster than Log and Transfer, as is importing all of the media. Way way faster.

[Shane Ross] "Time saving? How? "

P2 Flow is a much faster metadata editor and organizer than log and transfer, much much faster.

Importing native MXF files in to FCP is way way faster than the rewrapping action of log and transfer. Sorry, but it's true. Since implementing MXF4mac, our P2 workflow has sped up considerably, and if you need access to metadata and an Avid compatible MXF workflow, it's a no brainer.

[Shane Ross] "Same size, when you don't transcode. "

Not when you consider the size of the MXF files and the QT files.

[Shane Ross] "Since I am on a SAN with multiple editors, and we don't want to pay for MXF4MAC for seven FCP systems. "

You would have paid for the cost of all of the them by the time you finished logging with L&T and then rewrapping.



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Shane Ross
Re: FCP P2 workflow - Organization, Storage, and AVID migration
on May 27, 2010 at 7:12:31 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "So now you have multiple copies of the MXF files and multiple copies of the QT files. When using MXF, you just have the MXF files and don't worry about the QT, or archiving the QT"

No...you have ONE copy of the MXF files that you archived...or two if you do manual RAID 1 on drives like I do. Or the ONE set on your tape backup. And then the QTs that you work with.

With MXF4MAC, you have MXF files backed up, then MXF files on your media drive that you are working with. Are you telling me that you work with the ORIGINALS? Seriously? (and I don't archive the QT...only the MXF)

[Jeremy Garchow] "It's faster than Log and Transfer, as is importing all of the media. Way way faster. "

Yes, if you work with the masters...the originals. Which I cannot recommend. Archive the masters, copy them to the media drive and work on the COPIES. The copy process takes as long as L&T...and the same amount of space.

[Jeremy Garchow] "P2 Flow is a much faster metadata editor and organizer than log and transfer, much much faster."

Faster metadata editor. Well, that's apples/oranges, as FCP doesn't really edit the Metadata. Yes, I agree here though. When dealing with metadata, MXF4MAC and P2 Flow are essential. But if you don't have the need to do that, then it isn't essential.

[Jeremy Garchow] "Importing native MXF files in to FCP is way way faster than the rewrapping action of log and transfer. Sorry, but it's true."

I agree. But then...again...you are talking about working with the originals, NOT copies. I am a bit surprised that you work from the originals. What if your raid dies...even a RAID 5 can go kaput. You have no backup? Or do you back up to LTO. OH! There's your time. Or copying from the field drives that you bring in to the media storage..there's your time! Or do you work off the field archive drives?

Can you explain your workflow going from camera to working in FCP? You must be copying something somewhere, and there is your time.

My basic workflow. Shoot...offload P2 to field drive, often two field drives, with ShotPut Pro. Bring drives to office. L&T into FCP, after I use P2 Flow to make a batch list. Begin working in FCP. While I am working, I then copy the P2 offloads from the Field drives to my main archive system...using another machine.

So do you shoot P2, archive to archive drives, then take those to your office, and IMMEDIATELY edit with those drives?

[Jeremy Garchow] "Not when you consider the size of the MXF files and the QT files. "

Same size. All FCP does is put into a QT wrapper. 16GB of P2 media, when log and transferred into FCP, results in 16GB of QT files. When dealing with DVCPRO HD or AVCIntra native. When you transcode AVCintra, yes, the file sizes are larger, but you don't need to transcode. FCP does import AVCI native.

[Jeremy Garchow] "You would have paid for the cost of all of the them by the time you finished logging with L&T and then rewrapping. "

Again...what time? L&T is still faster than capturing from tape. And you MUST copy the footage to the media drives at some point. Same amount of time.

Shane



GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: FCP P2 workflow - Organization, Storage, and AVID migration
on May 27, 2010 at 7:31:56 pm

[Shane Ross] "you have ONE copy of the MXF files that you archived"

One copy? We use two. Then there's another on the editing raid, so three copies in total. Two are made right at the set, usually with ShotPut Pro.



[Shane Ross] "Faster metadata editor. Well, that's apples/oranges, as FCP doesn't really edit the Metadata."

It's not apples and oranges. When using L&T, you are editing the metadata of the shoot, albiet that metadata now lives in the FCP project only. Unless you don't edit the userclipname, but I am sure that most everyone does. When using P2 Flow and MXF4mac, the edited metadata lives with the MXF files themselves, forever, and isn't locked up in the FCP project. Also, QT does not include all of the metadata that is possible from the P2 structure.

[Shane Ross] " I am a bit surprised that you work from the originals."

I don't. I work from a copy of the files that were backed up on set.

[Shane Ross] "But then...again...you are talking about working with the originals, NOT copies. "

No, I am talking about the process of transferring files in to FCP. Sending files to FCP from P2 Flow is way faster than log and transfer.

[Shane Ross] "Can you explain your workflow going from camera to working in FCP? You must be copying something somewhere, and there is your time. "

Shoot, transfer card to two drives on set, and if lucky edit metadata right there, if not save that for later.

Transfer one of those drives to raid, and if we need to edit metadata, do it then. Send MXf files from P2 Flow to FCP.

Since the shoot drives are usually out shooting, we would transfer the MXF files from the shoot drives to the raid anyway even when we logged and transferred (pre MXF4mac). This way, those MXF files get archived with the project, with the shoot drives also go in the archive. We still end up with at least three copies of the MXF files in the archive somewhere. In our workflow, you aren't saving time by log and transfer as all the media transferring is happening anyway. We don't log and transfer from the shoot drives.

[Shane Ross] "Same size."

Again, when we work, we add the MXF files to the project, so we used to have the MXF files and the QT wrapped files. Now, we just have the MXF files, it's half of the disk space requirement.

[Shane Ross] "Again...what time? L&T is still faster than capturing from tape."

Tape? Who's talking about tape? :)

[Shane Ross] "And you MUST copy the footage to the media drives at some point. Same amount of time. "

You are forgetting the time it takes to log the footage and rewrap. I am not talking about file transfers, those are just part of the process. P2 Flow and MXF4mac will save you loads of time as opposed to the extremely clunky L&T interface. You can batch name a selection of clips in P2 Flow faster than it takes to name two clips in L&T, let alone 250 clips.


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Shane Ross
Re: FCP P2 workflow - Organization, Storage, and AVID migration
on May 27, 2010 at 7:40:53 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Transfer one of those drives to raid, and if we need to edit metadata, do it then. Send MXf files from P2 Flow to FCP. "

THERE! RIGHT THERE! You copy the files from one of those drives to the RAID. RIGHT THERE! That takes as long as Log and Tranfer. YOU DO COPY...you are transfering. THAT is the part where your "speed" argument doesn't work.

I won't argue about you with Metadata. That is very true, that when you need the metadata, that MXF4MAC and P2 Flow are the bomb. But not everyone needs all of that. Many people just need Reel number, shot and take...or just a description of the footage. So they don't need the app for all that metadata.

But again, L&T is just as fast as your workflow...because you are copying to your media drives. Just what L&T does when it wraps, and that takes a comparable amount of time.



Shane



GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: FCP P2 workflow - Organization, Storage, and AVID migration
on May 27, 2010 at 7:48:19 pm

[Shane Ross] "THERE! RIGHT THERE! You copy the files from one of those drives to the RAID. RIGHT THERE! That takes as long as Log and Tranfer."

But we copied a copy of the MXF files form the shoot archive drives to the raid anyway, before we used MXF4mac. We didn't just log and transfer from the shoot drives as those were usually out shooting.

[Shane Ross] "Many people just need Reel number, shot and take...or just a description of the footage."

Which is way faster in P2Flow. I'm sorry man, I won't give up. The P2Flow and MXF4mac workflow is faster all the way around.

[Shane Ross] "But again, L&T is just as fast as your workflow...because you are copying to your media drives. Just what L&T does when it wraps, and that takes a comparable amount of time. "

You are focusing on one aspect, I am talking form shoot to archive.


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Shane Ross
Re: FCP P2 workflow - Organization, Storage, and AVID migration
on May 27, 2010 at 7:57:03 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "But we copied a copy of the MXF files form the shoot archive drives to the raid anyway, before we used MXF4mac."

Yes...I know. And that process takes just as long as L&T from the archive shoot drives to the media drive. So the MASSIVE SPEED difference you talk about isn't there. It might be minor...talking a handful of minutes.

[Jeremy Garchow] "We didn't just log and transfer from the shoot drives as those were usually out shooting. "

Uh, no they aren't. You just said that "we copied a copy of the MXF files form the shoot archive drives to the raid" The shoot archive drives are there, in studio. Being copied to the media drive. And then to your main archive solution. Just like I do. L&T from the field drives, then archive to main archive solution.

[Jeremy Garchow] "Which is way faster in P2Flow. I'm sorry man, I won't give up. The P2Flow and MXF4mac workflow is faster all the way around. "

Define "way faster." I did a test of a 16GB card and I think the copy process, then P2 flow import was about 4 min faster...if that. But then I spent more than that making changes to metadata and all that. But again, that is the point...to preserve the metadata. Not everyone needs all of that.

[Jeremy Garchow] "You are focusing on one aspect, I am talking form shoot to archive."

Nope...I am talking shoot to edit and archive. We Shoot, archive to field drives, L&T to FCP, then archive the field drives. You shoot, copy the media from the field archives to your Media drive, P2 Flow the clips, then archive the drive. Both times files are being copied from the field archives to the media drives, then main archived later.

The time difference is minor. And I won't give up on that point. I have done tests. I still use P2 Flow, but the time savings isn't as great as you make it out to be. Not enough to justify the cost to people who don't need all the metadata.

Shane



GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Project created in 59.94, need 29.97
on May 27, 2010 at 8:12:37 pm

[Shane Ross] "Uh, no they aren't. "

How are you going to tell me when my drives are or aren't here next to me? Seriously? ;)

[Shane Ross] "The shoot archive drives are there, in studio. Being copied to the media drive. "

Yes, when we get back to the studio from the shoot, the drives are copied over night and then in the morning, off they go, or perhaps they are messengered to the studio, then picked up/messengered/FedExed back out to shoot site. Either way, the footage gets off the archive drives almost right away. We don't edit off of them or really use them except as P2 storage.

[Shane Ross] "Not everyone needs all of that. "

I don't see who wouldn't need that, especially when going from FCP to Avid as the O.P. is.

[Shane Ross] "I did a test of a 16GB card and I think the copy process, then P2 flow import was about 4 min faster...if that"

OK, that's one card, no multiply that out to the rest of the project. If you save an hour or two on the project, that's the cost of the software right there.

[Shane Ross] "I still use P2 Flow, but the time savings isn't as great as you make it out to be. Not enough to justify the cost to people who don't need all the metadata. "

Bologna. It's not that expensive and can be used by everyone. Especially in OPs case when they are moving from one platform to another.


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Shane Ross
Re: Project created in 59.94, need 29.97
on May 27, 2010 at 8:42:57 pm

The OP needs to go from FCP to Avid. But lacks the MXF files. That was a bad oversight...so that software won't work for him now. I will agree that for people who might need to do that, that the software is perfect for that.

ALL I am saying is that P2 Flow, when copying media from the backups to the media drive, then importing the footage to FCP and being ready to edit, is pretty much the same amount of time as it is if you Log and Transfer. Because when you log and Transfer, you can set that to go overnight...you can load multiple cards. Or, you can start the L&T process, and after the first clips is imported, you can start reviewing your footage, while the rest imports in the background.

And the amount of drive space needed on the drive for the native MXF files is the same as for the QT files. so the HUGE space savings is moot.

I will not deny that the workflow with P2 flow is pretty darn slick...and great with metadata. But not essential...and not really that much faster than L&T, nor take up less space.


Shane



GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Project created in 59.94, need 29.97
on May 27, 2010 at 8:49:45 pm

[Shane Ross] ".and not really that much faster than L&T, nor take up less space. "

We will agree to disagree.

MXF files + QT files on same raid = twice the disk space as having just the MXf files. But whatever....


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Shane Ross
Re: Project created in 59.94, need 29.97
on May 27, 2010 at 9:04:08 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "XF files + QT files on same raid = twice the disk space "

Who's doing that? Not me. Again...L&T to QT to the RAID from the ARCHIVE drives. Then back up the archive drives to my backup solution. I don't have MXF and QT on the same drives. Never said I did that. Never tell people to do that.

But yeah, we can agree to disagree. And sorry for taking over the thread with our banter, Andrea.

Shane



GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Project created in 59.94, need 29.97
on May 27, 2010 at 9:06:41 pm

[Shane Ross] "Who's doing that? Not me. Again...L&T to QT to the RAID from the ARCHIVE drives."

OK, we are starting to go in circles, but before MXF4mac, we had both the MXF files and QT files on the raid as the shoot drives were offloaded immediately so they could go back out.

Now we just need one copy of the MXF files on the raid, and if those files get moved to another machine, all of the metadata and logging goes with.

Andrea, keep your MXf files form now on.


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Shane Ross
Re: Project created in 59.94, need 29.97
on May 27, 2010 at 9:12:52 pm

Yeah, we didn't do that. Copy from Field Archive to BACKUP solution, then L&T. NOW I can see what you mean by time savings. You Copy to the RAID, begin working, then archive at the end of the day. NOW I get ya...

Yeah, huge time savings.



Shane



GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Andrea Scott
Re: Project created in 59.94, need 29.97
on May 27, 2010 at 11:16:28 pm

Well, I'm glad you've all come to some kind of agreement. A lot of the subsequent posts have gone over my head, but perhaps one day I will take the time to digest it all.

Moral of the story: we are saving MXF files. We will get a storage system with RAID 5 protection. You may see me again for questions about changing file and reel names, as I am having a hard time wrapping my brain around the lingo (Global ID - can you break this down?) and the intricacies. Go easy on me.


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Shane Ross
Re: Project created in 59.94, need 29.97
on May 27, 2010 at 11:24:36 pm

[Andrea Scott] "Well, I'm glad you've all come to some kind of agreeme"

Yeah...sorry about that. I would have done it in email, but discussions like this are good for people to see, so they can see benefits and drawbacks to things, and how we do things...thought processes...stuff like that. You'll understand one day.

[Andrea Scott] "(Global ID - can you break this down?)"

This is a 32-character (numbers and letters) that is truly unique. This Global ID will not ever be replicated. In fact, the Global ID for P2 is generated by the P2 camera...you can see this with metadata editors like P2 Flow or MXF4QT. And it is something you cannot change. So FCP will track the clip by that number. So no matter what you name the clip, or where, FCP will always reference that number, that is buried in the Quicktime file, and in the clip in FCP. Even if you change the reel name, the global ID stays the same.

But if you change the reel, then FCP won't look in the right folder for the footage. The REEL number will be the name you give the folder that you back up the P2 footage into. Here, just watch my tutorial.

P2 Workflow with FCP 6



Shane



GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: FCP P2 workflow - Organization, Storage, and AVID migration
on May 28, 2010 at 2:17:22 am

Really sorry for changing the subject of this thread. I forgot to edit the subject when I edited a post. My bad.

[Andrea Scott] "You may see me again for questions about changing file and reel names, as I am having a hard time wrapping my brain around the lingo (Global ID - can you break this down?) and the intricacies."

When using Log and Transfer, FCP identifies the clips using Global ID so that it won't mistake one file for another. Even though Panasonic says that it is very unlikely that you will get the same two MXF User Clip Names (such as 0001XS.MXF) it has happened on many occasion to me using the same camera on the same shoot, or different cameras on the same shoot. So, the global clip ID is a very unique number that can identify clips with the same User Clip Name.

When using P2Flow and MXF4mac, the Global Clip ID gets put the 'reel' column to really help identify what clip is where, no matter what drive the footage came from. This means you can spotlight (find) the Global Clip ID number and it will point to the appropriate XML file that is located within the CLIP folder of the P2 structure. The CLIP files are basically controlling the AUDIO and VIDEO folders within the p2 CONTENTS folder. It contains a lot of valuable information including timecode, clip length, Global Clip ID, spanned clip info, format, codec, and frame rate a plethora of user supplied metadata fields (if you choose to use them) and other information. FCP uses the information from the xml files located in the CLIP folder to identify all of the information within particular MXF files. Some of this information is stored within the 'essence' of the MXF file which is the actual MXF media files in the VIDEO and AUDIO folder, but not all of this information is stored there. That's why holding on to the entire P2 CONTENTS folder is very crucial, whether using FCP or MXF4mac.

With Log and Transfer, the encompassing folder name of the CONTENTS folder is copied to the reel name, but that folder name could easily change. MXF4mac decided that the Global Clip ID was more like a reel number as it was a unique ID rather than an encompassing folder which could vary.

The log and transfer mechanism in FCP is relatively smart and works well, but you need the MXF files to use the system. If you don't have the MXF files, those QT files you have are now your masters. Don't lose them. If you had the MXF files, you could relog and transfer the material relatively easily in case the QT files go missing, a volume (i.e. a drive or even a whole raid) goes corrupt, or you feed Gizmo after midnight and Gremlins rob your machine of it's logic and dignity.

By the way, here's a primer on how MXF4mac works. This video was made before P2 Flow existed:

http://library.creativecow.net/articles/garchow_jeremy/dvc_pro_hd.php

With P2 Flow a few things have changed, but the concept is the same. You can see an MOS movie of P2 Flow in action here:

http://reels.creativecow.net/film/p2-flow-example

Jeremy


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Andrea Scott
Re: FCP P2 workflow - Organization, Storage, and AVID migration
on May 28, 2010 at 4:49:30 pm

Thank you very much - I am beginning to have a MUCH better grasp on all of this.

Some follow-ups: As I mentioned before, I am most likely going to go into FCP and start changing reel names, in order to better organize the project. Don't get upset, but as it stands now, there are duplicate reel names in the project - hence the need to implement a new system and start messing with the old stuff. Okay - so, my question: if I change reel names within FCP and then for some reason have to reconnect those files (whether the files are corrupt or lost or (most likely) moved to a larger RAID solution), will FCP have a hard time finding those files, even with the Global ID b/c it won't be able to reference the reel name that was somehow imprinted in L&T? (Will I have to reconnect more manually?) And if this is the case, should I not mess with the file name, as well? Cause that would be the 2nd way of reconnecting the file?

I may be overthinking this, but let me know.

Also - ShotPut Pro - advantages?

Anyone know anything about the SataMax towers?
http://www.promax.com/Products/Storage/txtSearch/115038/List/1/productid/47...

Thanks!!


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Shane Ross
Re: FCP P2 workflow - Organization, Storage, and AVID migration
on May 28, 2010 at 5:51:47 pm

[Andrea Scott] "Also - ShotPut Pro - advantages? "

Automates the offload process, including creating new folders, naming them, using incremental naming (adding numbers, so FOLDER_01, FOLDER_02). And it does a verification of the data...making sure that every file matches what is on the P2 card is also on the drive.

[Andrea Scott] "if I change reel names within FCP and then for some reason have to reconnect those files (whether the files are corrupt or lost or (most likely) moved to a larger RAID solution), will FCP have a hard time finding those files, even with the Global ID b/c it won't be able to reference the reel name that was somehow imprinted in L&T?"

If you change the name in the Browser, use the MODIFY>RENAME>FILE TO MATCH CLIP option. So the media file has the same name as the clip in the Browser.

Shane



GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Bjoern Adamski
Re: FCP P2 workflow - Organization, Storage, and AVID migration
on May 29, 2010 at 7:02:50 pm

Hi,

P2 Flow is a workflow application, you can use the pure MXFs or you can use it with Log and Transfer. You can decide to work on the original MXFs with or without backups, you can even work straight on the P2 card. P2 Flow provides powerful workflow options for FC Studio that no other P2 aware NLE system offers. Time it can save, workflows it can improve and it is worth for those who require it. Many do, many don't. All is good.

Why don't you discuss in our beta forum btw.? ;-)

Bjoern

---------------------
Product Manager
MXF4mac
http://mxf4mac.com


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