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24p Nightmare

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Emily Cote
24p Nightmare
on May 1, 2010 at 2:14:02 pm

Ok....
I've shot mixed footage (oooops!)
The thing is, I don't remember if I shot 24pA or just 24p normal on a DVX100.

Question 1:
How do I tell which I shot in?

Furthermore, being completely ignorant to the fact that I was having a problem, I then edited it in a timeline with 30p footage. Upon export this 24p footage (whichever stupid format its in) is now appearing interlaced. Also, this is ever FURTHER annoying because I do not have a monitor so my computer screen is HARDLY reliable. And my final cut's resolution makes it so hard to tell what the footage will look like on export.

Question 2:
Why is it interlaced?

I have since then tested out reimporting with the pulldown (like I now realize is how I should've captured the material in the begining) and when it is done it says it is in 29.97, not 23.98. When I go to drag it into the 23.98 timeline its telling me i would work best if the timeline was 29.97.

Question 3:
If you capture with the pulldown, shouldn't it be in 23.98?

Finally, My real question is...

I have to use the mixed timeline, I cannot convert the 30p to 24p because the sound is important.

How can I get it so all my footage (both 30p and 24p) looks ok on export?

Is there a way to take the already recaptured without the pulldown 24p footage and make it look better without having to recapture?

Sorry for all the newbie questions, I now understand the full implications of shooting in progressive modes and will certainly do a better job next time, but I need to know how to fix it this time.

Thanks for any help in advance!


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Doug Beal
Re: 24p Nightmare
on May 1, 2010 at 4:39:10 pm

#1 The reason for Advanced (PA) is to introduce a cadence of 2:3:3:2 to enable removing pulldown to get to a 23.98 frame base where F1 and F2 are the same image and thus it appears progressive.
Normal 24P will have a pulldown cadence of 2:3:2:3 and may be REV telecined in Cinema tools. The entire clip will need to be treated.
Without a Monitor designed to be used for video and a device to feed that monitor capable of showing frames (F1andF2) it may be difficult to detect which cadence you are working with. Your computer monitor will only display Field1 thus you can't see interfield motion.
#2 DVX100A shoots to tape interlaced. It's NTSC SD on a helical scan head 525i.
#3 Pulldown originally comes from transerring images on Film 24 fps to Video tape 29.97 fps. extra frames needed to be created to have 1 second of film be 1 second of video run time. Video cameras approximate this look when recording to tape so no when you capture from tape you get the whole 29.97 fps with pulldown (google pulldown to see the differences between film and tape style pulldowns)

You may get away with blend fields and smart deinterlace filters applied to the resultant file if you export your timeline. What is your delivery format. That's what will determine what your copurse of action is to salvage what you have.
This is why a plan is necessary, and it's based on Delivery requirements
Think of Delivery = Paycheck
what do you have to do to get paid and what do you need to make that happen


Doug Beal
Editor / Engineer
Rock Creative Images
Nashville TN


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Emily Cote
Re: 24p Nightmare
on May 1, 2010 at 4:51:48 pm

Thanks,
I'm a student, so really i'm not making any money off it, just spending it haha.
it needs to be a DVD for my show.

I THINK the problem is that its 24p normal. From what I've read I'll have to do a telecine to remove the interlacing. Won't it play normal NTSC though without interlacing? If thats the case is there anyway I could print to tape then just recapture it at 29.97?

How do I do the telecine? I have never used Cinema Tools...


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Scott Sheriff
Re: 24p Nightmare
on May 1, 2010 at 6:57:56 pm

"Won't it play normal NTSC though without interlacing?"

No. NTSC is always interlaced.

I have read quite a few of your posts in the last month. I can appreciate that you are a student, but I don't understand why your teacher hasn't covered these basics?

I know every one that gets on a NLE system just wants to jump right in and start cutting, but you would be in a much better place if you can find the time to do some reading on frame rates, video and film standards, etc. I know this is all very dry and technical stuff, but once you learn it, you will have more time to spend on the creative.

Try this wikipedia link, its a decent place to start. Be sure to follow the links to older analog, and foreign standards. Knowing how this all evolved adds perspective. The Final Cut manual has some pretty solid info in it as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video

Scott Sheriff
Director
SST Digital Media
http://www.sstdigitalmedia.com


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Emily Cote
Re: 24p Nightmare
on May 1, 2010 at 8:08:39 pm

Sorry,
I Have been doing some reading and now do understand much better but I still don't understand what the solution is, and neither does my teacher. Cruddy education is what it comes down to I guess.

Anyways,
I know if you output 24 p timeline to NTSC at 29.97, you can recapture and make it 29.97 (off Graeme Nattress's site) which is why I asked that.

I basically just need a solution to this. ANY suggestions would be great. Thanks.


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Emily Cote
Re: 24p Nightmare
on May 2, 2010 at 2:03:11 am

I also REALLY don't understand why if I capture with the pulldown it still comes into final cut as 29.98. I don't get why it wants me to turn my timeline into that either.


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Michael Sacci
Re: 24p Nightmare
on May 2, 2010 at 3:42:02 am

[Emily Cote] " if I capture with the pulldown it still comes into final cut as 29.98"
because that is what the frame rate is, pulldown is the extra frames that make 24p into 30i. (and it is 29.97, not 29.98). To get the footage back to 23.98 you have to REMOVE the pulldown. That pulldown is combining/mixing frames which is why you see a major interlace frame (2 every 5 frames most likely).

But there is no push-a-button solution, If you have 30p and 24p (with pulldown) you will have some weirdness going on, either from extra frames added to the 24 to go up to 30 or from the removal of frames from the 30 to go down to the 24. A major task to say the lest.

In the end if you are delivering this on a DVD try the deinterlace via Compressor with frames control turned on, and set to both. This will be very time consuming so do short test. The other solution is to re-edit and fix all the footage before you start.




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Emily Cote
Re: 24p Nightmare
on May 2, 2010 at 3:50:20 am

SORRY, TYPO! I meant when I capture with the "remove pulldown" its still coming in at 29.97.


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Michael Sacci
Re: 24p Nightmare
on May 2, 2010 at 3:21:57 pm

I'm the last person to get onto anyone for typos but I think is part of the issue, you are rushing and just hitting buttons with understand what is going on, I know that is why you are here but you have to stop and think about what you are doing and understand the process.

First there is no way you can mix 24p and 30p and not have some "issue" going out, like I said in the previous post. I you are editing a 30p timeline, the 24p has to have merged frames, it has to create 6 extra frames. These merged frames will look like interlaced. If you don't want these extra frames your footage will play back as sped up. NO way around this.

Now why don't you post what you sequence settings are, how you need to deliver the finished project, where or not you have made a test DVD?


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Chris Conlee
Re: 24p Nightmare
on May 2, 2010 at 7:11:03 pm

I'm an Avid editor, so I am in no way a FCP expert. But generally speaking, to do what you're trying to do correctly, one or the other framerates should be converted to match the other before beginning your session. Since anything you shot on your DVX100 is in fact 29.97, with pulldown (one type or the other), you should still be able to capture that without removing the pulldown, thus generating a 30i stream. As somebody else mentioned, this will have to be field-blended in some way to make it look progressive.

It's unfortunate that you didn't shoot and edit in 30i, in some regards, because it's much easier to accomplish frame rate conversions. 30p is a real stumper. Good for certain applications, but difficult to fix problems such as yours.

If you simply deinterlaced the entire project, it might create a smooth playback. However, you'll basically sacrifice half your vertical resolution to do it. Maybe try simply deinterlacing the 24p (captured as 30i) footage? At least then only this portion of your show would be reduced in resolution.

There are a few tools to look at: JES Deinterlacer, DVFilm Maker, and Miraizon Reframe come to mind. One is free, the other two aren't.

Good luck.

Chris


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Emily Cote
Re: 24p Nightmare
on May 2, 2010 at 8:49:34 pm

I think I've actually figured it out...
As it stands now:
I shot 24p normal, the pull down remover on FCP does not remove it, which is why it is constantly coming in at 29.97. I would have to do a reverse telecine via Cinema Tools and then bring it into a 23.98 timeline. Correct?

THEN from there I could print to a DV tape and reimport and it would still have the look of 24p but be the correct frame rate, but would also lose some of the image quality, but still be able to work in 29.97 with both.

However, I burned a DVD and it looks fine enough for right now, no interlacing artifacts, etc. So that's how I'll deliver it to my show.

Thanks for everyone's paitience and input.


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Michael Sacci
Re: 24p Nightmare
on May 3, 2010 at 5:08:29 am

[Emily Cote] "THEN from there I could print to a DV tape and reimport and it would still have the look of 24p but be the correct frame rate, but would also lose some of the image quality, but still be able to work in 29.97 with both. "

That is what you have now, why would you want to remove it and then reintroduce it. Just leave it where is it, if you like the DVD you have none but add to the problem just spend the time CC'ing and working the audio.

For the next project, remember editing problems can be fixed in preproduction.


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Emily Cote
Re: 24p Nightmare
on May 3, 2010 at 7:26:07 am

I would export it to tape at 24p to give it the "film look" ...but keep it at 29.97. Graeme Nattress Suggested it?


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Dave LaRonde
Re: 24p Nightmare
on May 3, 2010 at 4:34:04 pm

You can simply capture the video at 29.97 AND edit at 29.97 unless you're doing any of the following:
  • Making a film-out
  • Making a 24p DVD
  • Making video for the web
  • Making motion graphics whose motion has to precisely match the footage.

That may seem like a lot of things are eliminated, but until very recently, almost ALL TV shows shot on film were captured and cut at 29.97. You didn't notice it was 29.97, did you?

If you need to make a DVD, no problem: make a 29.97 DVD. Your only problem will then be mixing 24p and 24pa... and 24pa only exists to make it easier for computers to remove the pulldown. The motion will look a little goofy, but if you can deal with it, that's okay.

I bet you keep closer track of what you're shooting next time, right?

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Bryan Banks
Re: 24p Nightmare
on May 4, 2010 at 12:21:58 am

if you shot it 24p then you have the "film look"... the keeping the pulldown intact (and editing at 29.97) doesn't take that away.

-Bryan


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