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Jeff Markgraf
asking the right questions
on Apr 28, 2010 at 6:40:36 am

Greetings Cows.

I think I'm about to get in a little over my head with an upcoming edit session.

I'm told the director/DP has footage shot in HDCam, 24 frames. The client thinks the footage is in PAL. The tapes will be coming here to LA to be used to edit a sizzle reel to secure additional funding for the project (a music documentary).

I'm assuming the best approach is to load and edit in 24p (actually 23.98, right?), then convert to whatever format they intend to show this in. (NTSC 29.97? or just burn a DVD, in which case 24 is OK?)

Coming from network promo (where it's either SD or 60i HD), I'm a bit outside my comfort zone here. Searching the forums is getting me nowhere fast.

What questions should I be asking these guys so I/we don't get burned down the road?

Thanks for any suggestions.


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Bouke Vahl
Re: asking the right questions
on Apr 28, 2010 at 8:54:59 am

you're right.
Stay in 24 (actually, 23.976, more accurate 24 / 1001 * 1000)

You then can:
-Add pulldown to go out to NTSC tape.
-Speed up to 25 and go out to PAL tape.
(note, you're content will get about 5% shorter, and you might want to change pitch if the music is very important, and that's black art by itself)
-Or indeed output to a 23.976 DVD that is Pal and NTSC compatible.

All with no quality loss.

This is why 24P in video was invented....



Bouke

http://www.videotoolshed.com/
smart tools for video pros


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Jeff Markgraf
Re: asking the right questions
on Apr 28, 2010 at 5:19:36 pm

Thanks, Bouke.

What about issues like 24p A or N or whatever? I presume that's what the easy setup take care of, but I don't know if these guys actually know what they've shot.

And I'm sure I'll end up mixing in other footage at different frame rates. Would it be best to convert 29.97 stuff to 24 for the edit, an let the chips fall where they may when it's all converted to the final output format?


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Bouke Vahl
Re: asking the right questions
on Apr 29, 2010 at 7:58:10 am

AP is advanced pulldown.
It's uglyer to the eye, but easy to remove.
It adds an extra interlaced frame every 4 frames to get from 24 to 30.
Thus, just removing these frames will get you a 24 image.

Normal pulldown repeats just a FIELD.
Looks pretty on interlaced monitors, but requires a render to remove.

So for shooting, use AP, for final output in 30, use NP.

Making 24 from true interlaced or progressive 30 fps stuff is hard.
I can't tell you what is wise, it highly depends on the amount you have from one or the other, and how important the shots are.
It also depends on the most important output you have...


Bouke

http://www.videotoolshed.com/
smart tools for video pros


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Jeff Markgraf
Re: asking the right questions
on Apr 29, 2010 at 10:16:53 pm

Well, the 40 hours of footage is shot in whatever the DP chose. I presume that will sort itself out. The final tape will be in the same 24p format, and DVDs will be burned to distribute.

As far as the PAL upconvert, the facility will do this through a Terranex to make the same 24p HDCam format as the main footage. They'll have to do the upconvert at some point, so may as well get it taken care of now. I know it may be a little ugly, but archival footage is what it is, and probably important to the final documentary.

Thanks for your help here. We'll see how things go Monday :-)


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Bouke Vahl
Re: asking the right questions
on Apr 30, 2010 at 6:47:58 am

whatever you decide, do remove the pullown before editing.
Doing it afterwards is possible, but only if you have enough handles and it will take a bit of time.

If you add pulldown in the latest state, the cadence will be in a way it can be removed afterwards.

For Pal upconvert, i would not use a Teranex.
I've done quite nice upconversions using AviSynth.
(about 3 times slower than RT, and high quality Lanczos scaling)
Slow down 25 to 24, and upconvert. If it's really showing, (especially if you have 4:3) sources upconverting to a smaller image to show in a box / frame will help.



Bouke

http://www.videotoolshed.com/
smart tools for video pros


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Jeff Markgraf
Re: asking the right questions
on May 3, 2010 at 3:47:22 am

Turns out the HD footage is PAL HD, 25p. Which makes the upconvert easier. Now on to the edit (first time in PAL for me!). Fortunately, the facility I booked has its technical act together and can handle everything.

Thanks for the good advice.


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Jeff Markgraf
Re: asking the right questions
on May 28, 2010 at 1:21:57 am

Just thought I'd follow up.

We decided to put everything into ProRes for the edit. The HD material looked great. Lots more upconverted PAL Digibeta source than originally thought. Plus a fair amount of ripped DVD footage. (Not for broadcast or sale or public exhibition, so no copyright issues.)

Everything worked well. Monitored in downconverted PAL, as this was going straight to DVD for presentation.

Big kudos to Westside Media Group in LA. Good rate, good people. Repeat after me- fast storage and plenty of it. There is no substitute. These guys get it. Nothing fancy, but everything worked. You can't believe how rare that is these days.

Thanks to all you Cows for the pre-edit advice. I'l know more for the next project.


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