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Peter Hadfield
2:3:3:2 instead of 3:2 pulldown
on Apr 6, 2010 at 5:43:23 pm

Hello

I'm doing the final visual deliverables for an animated show and having a bit of trouble.

I send an audio post house a 29.97fps PhotoJPG of the show first so they can do the audio mix, and the plan is to lay the final visual over the mixed audio, but they're getting synch issues with the video and audio.

I edit in true 24fps, then export a same as source quicktime, then put that quicktime into a 1080i29.97 sequence and export another same as source quicktime. Apparently this isn't right because of the synch issues. The guys at the audio post place think it's an issue with the pulldown. I currently have a 3:2 pulldown and they want a 2:3:3:2 pulldown.

Does anyone know how I would get true 24p animation into 1080i29.97 with a 2:3:3:2 pulldown?

Thanks for the help,
Peter


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: 2:3:3:2 instead of 3:2 pulldown
on Apr 6, 2010 at 7:02:26 pm

[Peter Hadfield] "Does anyone know how I would get true 24p animation into 1080i29.97 with a 2:3:3:2 pulldown? "

Not without a lot of re-timing.

WHy do they want advanced pulldown?

Why do they want 29.97 when you are working 24.0?


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Peter Hadfield
Re: 2:3:3:2 instead of 3:2 pulldown
on Apr 6, 2010 at 7:13:46 pm

I had a 3:2 pulldown at first, but there was a synch issue between the mixed audio that was done off of a 29.97 PhotoJPG version of the show and the 1080i29.97 3:2 pulldown I gave them of the locked visual. The guys at the post house seem to think a 2:3:3:2 pulldown would fix that problem.

The broadcaster needs a 59.94fps version, and I guess they want 29.97 versions to mix off of because 29.97 is easily compatible with 59.94i? I didn't know that Final Cut's 59.94i is shown as 1080i29.97 at first, but I got over that hurdle.

I think if I set FCP to 2:3:3:2 in the system settings, convert the 24p video to 23.98fps, then put it into a 1080i29.97 sequence and export a same as source quicktime that might do the trick. What do you think?






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Jeremy Garchow
Re: 2:3:3:2 instead of 3:2 pulldown
on Apr 6, 2010 at 7:36:56 pm

[Peter Hadfield] "The guys at the post house seem to think a 2:3:3:2 pulldown would fix that problem. "

No, it won't. The problem is not the pulldown, it's the frequency. You are going from a whole frequency to a fractional frequency.

[Peter Hadfield] "The broadcaster needs a 59.94fps version, and I guess they want 29.97 versions to mix off of because 29.97 is easily compatible with 59.94i?"

When speaking about 1080i video, they are one in the same, just different terminology (fields vs frames per second).

[Peter Hadfield] "I think if I set FCP to 2:3:3:2 in the system settings, convert the 24p video to 23.98fps, then put it into a 1080i29.97 sequence and export a same as source quicktime that might do the trick. What do you think?
"


I think that it is definitely not the way to do this. First of all, FCP adds incorrect pulldown so you will have 2224 pulldown which will look like crap. If you simply conform from 24 to 23.976, then you audio and video will get slowed down (albeit by not much, but for audio/video sync, it's crucial) and audio will get resampled. If I were you, I would do the whole show @ 24.0, then do the conform at the very end (but you have to get your timings right before you do the conform). This will ensure everything is in sync, and you can then make a 1080i master from the 24.0. And just curious, but why 24.0?

Jeremy


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Peter Hadfield
Re: 2:3:3:2 instead of 3:2 pulldown
on Apr 6, 2010 at 8:21:09 pm

Hi Jeremy,

Thanks for helping with some of my questions.

If it's a frequency problem, how do I go about fixing that? All I really need to do is make sure that my 59.94i version synchs up to my 29.97 version.

I'm editing in 24.0 because I'm editing animation, and it seems the animators can only do 24.0, and I don't really have the time to convert hundreds of 24.0 animation clips to 23.98fps.

Why does Final Cut do a 2224 pulldown? How can I make it do a proper 3:2?

The first thing I tried to do was export a same as source quicktime from my 24.0 sequence, then I put that in my 1080i29.97 sequence and did another same as source quicktime. I'm cutting the whole show in 24.0 on my end, it's just the audio post guys want 29.97.

I got the 1080i29.97 version and PhotoJPG 29.97 version to synch up, but if Final Cut is doing a 2224 that won't help me.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: 2:3:3:2 instead of 3:2 pulldown
on Apr 7, 2010 at 3:05:48 pm

[Peter Hadfield] "All I really need to do is make sure that my 59.94i version synchs up to my 29.97 version. "

No, you need to make sure your 24.0 version is going to sync to the 29.97(59.94) version.

[Peter Hadfield] "and I don't really have the time to convert hundreds of 24.0 animation clips to 23.98fps. "

It takes mere seconds in Cinema Tools and you can even do a batch conform, but it will slow down all of your footage ever so slightly, for short clips, it will be imperceptible.

[Peter Hadfield] "The first thing I tried to do was export a same as source quicktime from my 24.0 sequence, then I put that in my 1080i29.97 sequence and did another same as source quicktime. "

That won't work. You will need to take your 24.0 movie and add proper 3:2 pulldown in Compressor or AE and slwo down to 29.97.

[Peter Hadfield] "Why does Final Cut do a 2224 pulldown? How can I make it do a proper 3:2? "

It won't via the FCP software itself. You will need either a plug in, or bounce it out to another application, or layoff the film in real time to tape with a capture card that will add appropriate 3:2 pulldown.

Jeremy


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Peter Hadfield
Re: 2:3:3:2 instead of 3:2 pulldown
on Apr 8, 2010 at 12:49:56 am

Will converting a 24.0 quicktime to a 29.97 quicktime in compressor give it the 3:2 pulldown? Or are there different settings I have to give compressor to make that happen?

I got my 24.0 version and my 1080i29.97 version to synch up by converting the 24.0 version to 29.97 first, then exporting it as 1080i29.97. Does that step give the video a 3:2 pulldown?

The people I'm delivering to say that the way to tell I have the wrong pulldown is every 5th frame will be a still. Does that still mean I have a 2:2:2:4 pulldown?

Thanks for your attention Jeremy. I appreciate the help very much.

Peter


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: 2:3:3:2 instead of 3:2 pulldown
on Apr 8, 2010 at 3:58:22 pm

[Peter Hadfield] "Will converting a 24.0 quicktime to a 29.97 quicktime in compressor give it the 3:2 pulldown? Or are there different settings I have to give compressor to make that happen? "

It can, but you will be retiming your movie slighty. You can search this forum in how to add pulldown in compressor. I've posted in many many times.

[Peter Hadfield] "Does that step give the video a 3:2 pulldown? "

No, 2224. And you aren't doing a proper conform, what you are doing there is forcing FCP to render @ 29.97 which won't result in the best quality.

[Peter Hadfield] "The people I'm delivering to say that the way to tell I have the wrong pulldown is every 5th frame will be a still. Does that still mean I have a 2:2:2:4 pulldown? "

That is exactly 2224 pulldown, except it's every fourth frame. Two fields, two fields, two fields, four fields (frame, frame, frame, two frames).


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Peter Hadfield
Re: 2:3:3:2 instead of 3:2 pulldown
on Apr 8, 2010 at 4:30:25 pm

Hi Jeremy,

I searched 3:2 pulldown in Compressor and found a thread that provided some information about 3:2 pulldowns on 24p video.

So, if I follow these steps, I can give my 24.0 clips a 3:2 pulldown, correct?

- import 24p footage to Compressor
- apply Quicktime encoding profile (usually ProRes 422 or Uncompressed)
- in Encoder tab of inspector, click Settings button and under Motion, change frame rate to 29.97
- in Frame Controls tab of inspector, turn frame controls ON, set output fields to lower, select "Fast (Nearest Frame)" for rate conversion, duration is 100% of source
- render

But once I put that converted 29.97 clip into a 1080i29.97 sequence and export it, I won't be doing a proper conform, so will Final Cut give the 1080i29.97 clip a 2:2:2:4 pulldown again? Would I have to put the 29.97 clip into compressor and follow the same steps as above but set the frame rate to 59.94? Or maybe I could just do that in the first place?

Thanks for the help. I'm learning a lot!
Peter


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: 2:3:3:2 instead of 3:2 pulldown
on Apr 8, 2010 at 4:37:05 pm

[Peter Hadfield] "But once I put that converted 29.97 clip into a 1080i29.97 sequence and export it, I won't be doing a proper conform, so will Final Cut give the 1080i29.97 clip a 2:2:2:4 pulldown again?"

No. You won't need to being it back in and export it again as Compressor will give you a file that you can use.

Since you have conformed to 29.97, there won't be any more pulldown added.

You didn't read one of my first posts thoroughly enough. 29.97 and 59.94 are THE EXACT SAME THING when talking about 1080i video. 29.97 refers to frames per second, 59.94 refers to fields per second. They are both the exact same timing.


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Peter Hadfield
Re: 2:3:3:2 instead of 3:2 pulldown
on Apr 8, 2010 at 6:17:29 pm

Hi Jeremy,

Forgive me if I'm a little slow to catch on to this, but I think I'm beginning to grasp the concept.

My 24.0 clips had a 2:2:2:4 pulldown (I could tell because the 4th and 5th frame were the same), and changing the frame rate to 29.97 didn't change the pulldown, so when I put the 29.97 clip into a 1080i29.97 sequence (which is the same frame rate) and exported a same as source quicktime, I got a quicktime with a 29.97 frame rate and a 2224 pulldown. So the reason there are synch issues with the audio is because I'm delivering a 1080i29.97 clip with a 2:2:2:4 pulldown when the pulldown should be 3:2. Correct?

I've followed the steps I found in another forum to convert my 24.0 clip to 29.97 with a 3:2 pulldown, so I'm going to do some tests to see if that will solve the issue.

Thanks,
Peter


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: 2:3:3:2 instead of 3:2 pulldown
on Apr 8, 2010 at 8:19:13 pm

[Peter Hadfield] "My 24.0 clips had a 2:2:2:4 pulldown (I could tell because the 4th and 5th frame were the same),"

So then you don't have 24.0 clips. Your 24.0 clips should NOT have any pulldown.



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Peter Hadfield
Re: 2:3:3:2 instead of 3:2 pulldown
on Apr 8, 2010 at 8:26:25 pm

"Your 24.0 clips should NOT have any pulldown. "
Oh, ok.

So, converting my 24.0 clip to 29.97 gave it a 2:2:2:4 pulldown, because that's default for FCP. So that's why I have to change the pulldown on the 29.97 clip to 3:2 in Compressor, correct?


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: 2:3:3:2 instead of 3:2 pulldown
on Apr 8, 2010 at 8:32:55 pm

[Peter Hadfield] "So, converting my 24.0 clip to 29.97 gave it a 2:2:2:4 pulldown, because that's default for FCP. So that's why I have to change the pulldown on the 29.97 clip to 3:2 in Compressor, correct?"

Yes. Now you got it!



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Peter Hadfield
Re: 2:3:3:2 instead of 3:2 pulldown
on Apr 8, 2010 at 9:21:41 pm

Ok. Good. I'm getting somewhere.

Now, is it necessary to convert my 24.0 clips to 29.97 first with the 2:2:2:4 pulldown, and then change the pulldown to 3:2, or can I go straight from 24.0 with no pulldown to 29.97fps with the 3:2?

I've been following these steps to get a 3:2 pulldown:
1. In FCP, select your sequence then choose FILE > SEND TO > COMPRESSOR. Or you can export your sequence to a video or reference video then open that in Compressor.

2. In Compressor, select your video then right click and choose NEW TARGET WITH SETTING > APPLE > FORMATS > QUICKTIME > APPLE PRORES 422 (HQ). Or pick whatever codec you like to work with.

3. Click on that newly created compression setting to open it in the Inspector window. Click the Encoder tab. Click the Video: (Settingsā€¦) button. Make the frame rate 29.97. Check the interlaced box. Set it's drop down menu to Bottom field first. Click OK.

4. Click the Frame Controls tab. Set Frame Controls to On. Set Output Fields to Bottom first. Leave Deinterlace on Fast. Leave Adaptive Details checked. Leave Rate Conversion set to Fast. Leave the Set Duration to: on 100% and make sure it's radio button is selected and NOT the "so source frames play at 29.97 fps" button.

5. Make changes to the Filters or Geometry sections as needed. Those settings listed above are the ones critical to getting the proper 3:2 pulldown added.

6. Submit the compression, then bring the resulting video back into Final Cut Pro. Place it in a 29.97 timeline and make sure you watch it on an NTSC monitor to verify that it looks good. If you step through it frame-by-frame you should see the familiar pattern of 2 split/interlaced frames followed by 3 whole frames. This is a very important step. I tried many solutions that looked OK playing back on the computer monitor, but looked terrible on the NTSC monitor.


I saw you had commented on this thread and said that compressor can do a good job "if you set it up correctly". Are those steps correct for a 3:2 pulldown?

Jeremy, you've been a HUGE help.
Thank you very much,
Peter


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: 2:3:3:2 instead of 3:2 pulldown
on Apr 13, 2010 at 5:31:16 pm

[Peter Hadfield] "Now, is it necessary to convert my 24.0 clips to 29.97 first with the 2:2:2:4 pulldown, and then change the pulldown to 3:2, or can I go straight from 24.0 with no pulldown to 29.97fps with the 3:2? "

No and that's impossible. Your goal is to go from 24.0 (no pulldown) to 29.97 with 3:2 pulldown. No 2224 pulldown ever.

[Peter Hadfield] "Set it's drop down menu to Bottom field first. Click OK. "

You are going to want upper field first for 1080i.


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