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24p to 23.98 conversion

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Joel Fisher
24p to 23.98 conversion
on Mar 30, 2010 at 11:31:08 pm

Greetings. We have a 23.98psf project for which the majority of footage shot was 23.98, and which will be finished and delivered 23.98.

Now, a videographer is about to deliver some AVCHD footage that they accidentally shot 24p on their Panasonic whatsit. Our workflow is ProRes, so we'll be converting it to ProRes like everything else, but need to know if there's a way we can convert the clips/footage to 23.98, or if there will be any cadence or QC problems if we use the 24p as-is.

Thank you, and I look forward to hearing back!


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Shane Ross
Re: 24p to 23.98 conversion
on Mar 30, 2010 at 11:51:41 pm

24p can be 23.98. Or it can be 24p over 29.97... is it 24p over 29.97? If so, then just reverse telecine it in Compressor or Cinema Tools.



Shane



GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Joel Fisher
Re: 24p to 23.98 conversion
on Mar 30, 2010 at 11:53:29 pm

It's 24p footage that we need to cut at 23.98, along with everything else. Final delivery will be 23.98psf HDCAM SR.


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Shane Ross
Re: 24p to 23.98 conversion
on Mar 30, 2010 at 11:56:25 pm

24p isn't specific enough. 24p can be 23.98, it can be 29.97. Is the footage you have 29.97? If so, reverse telecine it to 23.98 to match.



Shane



GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Joel Fisher
Re: 24p to 23.98 conversion
on Mar 31, 2010 at 12:03:33 am

Yes, I'm sorry. We're trying to get ahold of one of the clips before the videographer converts and delivers everything to us to save everyone potential headaches.

However, for the sake of argument, let's say they shot it as 24P... it's AVCHD, 24P (don't know what all the framerates of those cameras are, these days, but perhaps a 24pN?)

So do we need to run a conversion on it to make it have a proper cadence when playing back at 23.98, or can we simply cut the 24P footage on the 23.98 timeline without any framerate conversion, pulldowns, pushups, jumping jacks or anything?

Also of interest, in Final Cut the footage comes up as 24P, as opposed to everything else, which is 23.98. Don't know if that sheds some light.

Thanks a lot, Shane.

-Joel


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: 24p to 23.98 conversion
on Mar 31, 2010 at 3:01:38 am

I'd be willing to wager the footage is 23.98.


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Joel Fisher
Re: 24p to 23.98 conversion
on Mar 31, 2010 at 4:00:11 am

I don't think so. Everything else in the bin within Final Cut is listed as "23.98", while the test clip we have is coming up as "24p". Now, is it not true that some Panasonic cameras (this was shot with AVCHD codec) have the option to shoot at a solid true-progressive 24p? (i.e. the HVX200, which was capable of 24pN... 24 true-progressive frames, yes?)

So, is it a problem to mix some "24p" on a 23.98 timeline with 23.98 assets? If so, how can we fix this videographer's footage? All other camera operators on other days shot XDCAM 23.98 with the Sony EX1 and EX3.

If there is no conversion option, and the 24p is left as-is, will this be a problem for 3rd party broadcast QC, in the end?

Please do let me know if there is a solution for 24p to 23.98. I know 23.98 is often referred to by some as 24p. But can't we agree "23.98" is technically "23.98psf" (which, according to my understanding is an interlaced format, more closely akin to 29.97/59.94?) and that if Final Cut is differentiating on the framerate within the bin, perhaps it's recognizing a difference?

Thanks a ton!


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: 24p to 23.98 conversion
on Mar 31, 2010 at 4:07:08 am

The hvx NTSC version only shoots 23.98, even though it's called 24pN. The codec might be called 24p. Find the the 'vid rate' or frame rate colby in the browser.

Dollars to doughnuts it's 23.98.

Make a new sequence, drop that clip only in the timeline and hit yes when fcp asks to match the timeline to the clip. Then hit command-zero and check the frame rate of the sequence.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: 24p to 23.98 conversion
on Mar 31, 2010 at 4:09:25 am

That's column, not Colby. Dern iPhones.


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gary adcock
Re: 24p to 23.98 conversion
on Mar 31, 2010 at 12:34:58 pm

[Joel Fisher] "So, is it a problem to mix some "24p" on a 23.98 timeline with 23.98 assets?"

OK.
It has been mentioned that 24p is considered to be 23.98 in North America.
if its not 23.98 it is 24.0 and that frame rate is considered "24 true"

if you need to CONFORM between these 2 frame rates

Open Cinema Tools
File open your video clip
Little button at bottom right of open file window says " conform" - Click it.
choose 23.98.
click OK.


gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows for the Digitally Inclined
Chicago, IL

http://blogs.creativecow.net/24640



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Joel Fisher
Re: 24p to 23.98 conversion
on Mar 31, 2010 at 5:06:06 pm

Gary, you're absolutely right. It did come up in Cinema Tools as "24.0".

Upon conforming to 23.98 in Cinema Tools the "Aud Rate" column in FCP goes from 48.0KHz to 47952Hz... is the video being slowed down ever so slightly to 23.98, affecting the pitch of the audio and everything? If so, is this the only and best workaround for footage that was shot improperly?

Thanks a ton, everyone!


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: 24p to 23.98 conversion
on Mar 31, 2010 at 5:11:20 pm

[Joel Fisher] "is the video being slowed down ever so slightly to 23.98, affecting the pitch of the audio and everything?"

Exactly. And sorry, i guess I stand corrected. Didn't know AVCHD camera could shoot 24.0 (unless this was from a PAL based camera).

[Joel Fisher] " If so, is this the only and best workaround for footage that was shot improperly? "

You could use Compressor, but the Cinema Tools route requires no processing.


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Joel Fisher
Re: 24p to 23.98 conversion
on Mar 31, 2010 at 5:19:22 pm

Ah, so we could process this through Compressor.

Would it be as simple as creating a ProRes droplet that was specifically 1080psf 23.98, as opposed to "Settings based off of source resolution and frame-rate." We want to help make it as clear, easy and dummy-proof as possible for them and for us. If we create a droplet, they won't have to do more than set their system up to render, choose target directories and enjoy a nice long coffee break.

So, just create a 23.98 ProRes droplet, and Compressor will handle the conform properly?

Once again, thanks a million, everyone.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: 24p to 23.98 conversion
on Mar 31, 2010 at 5:20:40 pm

you want to set the frame rate to 23.976 in Compressor, not 23.98.

Then in the frame controls set everything to best.


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Joel Fisher
Re: 24p to 23.98 conversion
on Mar 31, 2010 at 5:22:00 pm

Wonderful! We'll give it a whirl.


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Tom Brooks
Re: 24p to 23.98 conversion
on Apr 1, 2010 at 2:17:36 am

Apple seems to be the only publisher confirming the 23.98 frame rate. This from FCP 7 help files online:

http://documentation.apple.com/en/finalcutpro/professionalformatsandworkflo...


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Rafael Amador
Re: 24p to 23.98 conversion
on Apr 1, 2010 at 2:42:05 am

[Joel Fisher] " is the video being slowed down ever so slightly to 23.98, affecting the pitch of the audio and everything?"
No problem at all here.
When you conform 25fps footage to 24/23'98, you have a 4% speed change, what can really be an issue with the audio.
In this case (24 to 23'98), the speed difference is some 0'04%.
Not even Superman would be able to notice.
However, as long as you have to transcode all that footage, Jeremy's suggestion is the best option.
rafael



http://www.nagavideo.com


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Matt Lyon
Re: 24p to 23.98 conversion
on Apr 1, 2010 at 3:18:53 am

I totally agree ... CONFORMING the frame rate is the way to go.

If you do this through compressor you also have to set the "retiming control" to "so source frames play at 23.98" (actually 23.976, as we all know).

If you leave the setting at "set duration to: 100.000% of source," Compressor will create interpolated frames, which would likely create motion artifacts.



Matt Lyon
Editor
Toronto


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