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DVX100 24p in FCP 7

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John Pastuch
DVX100 24p in FCP 7
on Mar 28, 2010 at 1:40:27 am

OK, I've posted in other forums (including DVXuser, so if you recognize me, sorry), but I'm looking for a specific, concrete answer.

I'm filming a very important project on a DVX100 and intended to edit in FCP. I set my scene file to 24pA, knowing this was the best 24p mode to edit in (after reading tons of things about it).

We start filming the first scene and my friend, who owns a Macbook pro and FCP 7 said "Hey, why don't we record this straight through live capture in FCP to avoid wear on the DVX heads" and I said "sure!"

Recently I learned that using this method, the DVX100 can only record STANDARD 24p. So I wound up, apparently, with standard 24p on the hard drive.

HOWEVER, we were able to select all the clips and use "Remove Advanced Pulldown" in the tools menu, and it worked correctly- there was a huge visible difference in the footage afterwards, but by all accounts, it shouldn't have worked, right? Since I didn't have "Advanced" pulldown, just normal pulldown?

Also, the clips now say "23.98" and seem to work and look just as fine as other 24pA stuff I've shot to tape.

My biggest worry is that I've compromised quality on this scene by accidentally recording in 24p. I've read about compression artifacts and ghosting finding their way into 24p standard with pulldown removed, but I don't know if that was years ago or still true.

I can't reshoot the scene but this is really really really important to me right now. I've put everything I have including money, time and passion into this project and this was an honest, stupid mistake. I want this to look good upscaled to HD, on DVD, on progressive monitors, or even to film- if it hypothetically ever got there- and I'm very very worried about the 24p stuff causing quality problems down the road. Even if it is SD standard footage, I still want it to be the highest possible quality.

So this isn't a throwaway project for me, it's my entire lifeblood. I just want to know what exactly happened with the pulldown, what I can do with these clips to ensure they have the highest quality.

Thanks for your time...


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Rob Grauert
Re: DVX100 24p in FCP 7
on Mar 28, 2010 at 2:52:05 am

This is my understanding of 24p with Panasonic

24pA uses a pulldown pattern that allows for easier removal so you can edit in a native 23.98 timeline. This pulldown patter actually duplicates full frames to fill 29.97 on tape.

24p uses a pulldown pattern that is hard to remove, but duplicates frames AND fields for a better blend to 29.97, but it still maintains the 24p look. This footage can be treated just as you would treat regular 29.97 footage. Just ingest as 60i (because that's what it is with the pulldown) and start editing.

So really, neither one is better than the other. You use 24pA if you need to work in a 23.98 timeline. You use 24p if you don't need to work in a 23.98 timeline. Do you NEED to work in a 23.98 timeline? If not, capture the footage as 29.97 and begin editing

Robert J. Grauert, Jr.
http://www.robgrauert.com
command-r.tumblr.com


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Rob Grauert
Re: DVX100 24p in FCP 7
on Mar 28, 2010 at 2:55:11 am

Also, in my opinion, that was kinda silly to record directly to your computer just to save the heads of your camera. They're not THAT fragile.

Robert J. Grauert, Jr.
http://www.robgrauert.com
command-r.tumblr.com


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John Pastuch
Re: DVX100 24p in FCP 7
on Mar 28, 2010 at 3:04:22 am

In other words I was trying to save hours on the head and it was also to help with sync sound...it did make things easier and faster but obviously it's caused potential problems.


Anyway, I have to edit on 23.98 at this point because I've removed pulldown and I have a bunch of other stuff I've already shot 24pA to tape with.

AND I still do not understand what's happened- I removed advanced pulldown from standard 24p footage- what happened to the footage then if the pulldown was standard? And why is the 24p seemingly working smoothly on a 23.98 timeline? Do I have to do anything to this standard 24p footage in Cinematools? Did I luck out? I don't get it.


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Michael Sacci
Re: DVX100 24p in FCP 7
on Mar 28, 2010 at 3:18:58 am

There is no reason you cannot use 24pA out to a computer and have it remove the advanced pulldown as it captures. But if you have the camera set to 24p and then have the Remove advanced pulldown checked, it is removing the wrong fields. You can also remove the standard pulldown from 24p but it is not as clean as 24pA.

To test your footage as is, just step through the video one frame at a time, if you do not have an external monitor set your canvas to 100% (even if you don't have room for it) as you set through the clips you will find blended frames every 3 or 4 frames. This is because the cadence of the record didn't match the cadence of the removal. This may not be all that noticeable once the footage is in motion but is will be wrong and noticeable to some extent.

But let's talk about your thinking. Unless there is something wrong with the tape head on your camera you are crazy not to be recording to tape. Tape is your safety back up there is no reason to not record to tape. Who cares about the heads on the camera, unless you are using a camera for hours every day it will last for a long long time.

- Our software is idiot-proof, if you bought it it proves you are an idiot. - Dilbert


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John Pastuch
Re: DVX100 24p in FCP 7
on Mar 28, 2010 at 3:30:13 am

Ok, I'm sticking with tape for the rest of the project anyway...


But wait, back up...you said there's no reason I can't do 24pA out to computer? I've been told different by Noah Kadner, who told me 24pA is impossible via live capture with firewire.

I had it set to 24pA, but Noah said that because of my method it actually only captured standard 24p. So I'm confused.


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Michael Sacci
Re: DVX100 24p in FCP 7
on Mar 28, 2010 at 5:36:09 am

Are you sure you/he were not talking about 24pN with HD 720p footage (I know the DVX doesn't record HD but there might have been confusion.)

24pA goes through FW just fine because it is sending it out as 60i, I don't have a DVX anymore but if I put my HVX in Tape mode and set it to 24pA, in FCP log and capture device control has to be set to non-controllable, Capture settings to DV w/ Advanced Pulldown Removal, it captures just fine. Clips are 23.98 in the bin. But there is no timecode connection between the live record and TC if I also recorded to tape.

Once again I would always record to tape, even if I needed the quick turn of not having to log and capture the tapes, I would still want them as back ups.

- Our software is idiot-proof, if you bought it it proves you are an idiot. - Dilbert


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John Pastuch
Re: DVX100 24p in FCP 7
on Mar 28, 2010 at 5:09:28 pm

No, he flat out said to me that 24pA is impossible with live capture, and he knows I'm talking DV and not HD- and I mean, the guy literally wrote the book on this stuff....he also said it shouldn't be a problem, but again, I don't know where this will be played/transferred to, so I'm just a bit worried about interlacing and ghosting in the footage.

But you're absolutely positive you've captured 24pA with live capture over firewire with no problem? The way Noah put it, it seems 24pA can only be written to tape then understood correctly while being digitized. We didn't remove the advanced pulldown until AFTER we captured it all live, and when we did, the footage looked better, not worse.

So really I'm trying to figure out if perhaps Noah misunderstood my question and really what I DID exactly if 24pA can't be captured live- I'm editing in a 23.98 either way because I have 24pA footage from tape to use too.


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Michael Sacci
Re: DVX100 24p in FCP 7
on Mar 28, 2010 at 7:35:48 pm

don't know if it is a DVX vs HVX but I did a test and captured 24pA to FCP just fine with my HVX in tape mode. I shot SD about once a year and I don't capture live, I guess did a test to confirm that I can do it. I was running without a tape but I don't think that matters. Why don't you just do a test. You have the camera and the computer. Set it up and record for a while. Step through the footage to make sure it is right.

If you want to edit 23.98, then shot 24pA, if you cannot do it live, then just use tape. It will give you the cleanest 24p footage.

- Our software is idiot-proof, if you bought it it proves you are an idiot. - Dilbert


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John Pastuch
Re: DVX100 24p in FCP 7
on Mar 28, 2010 at 8:34:53 pm

Well I've learned my lesson now to always use a tape, and have been since, I just didn't know about any of this this time.

And unfortunately I cannot do a test right now- my friend is the one with a macbook pro and I'm editing on a mac at school, so I'll have to wait for tomorrow.

I appreciate you taking the time to run the test though. Thanks a bunch, man.

-John


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Dave LaRonde
Re: DVX100 24p in FCP 7
on Mar 29, 2010 at 1:20:39 pm

[John Pastuch] "The way Noah put it, it seems 24pA can only be written to tape then understood correctly while being digitized. We didn't remove the advanced pulldown until AFTER we captured it all live, and when we did, the footage looked better, not worse. "

I'm well aware that Noah knows his stuff, but then I think about this: every DV tape transport works the same way. It records two interlaced fields per frame at 29.97 frames/sec. That's the DV standard. The tape heads don't do anything magical when shooting at a film frame rate, they just keep pluggin' away at 29.97 interlaced frames every second.

So how does a film frame rate -- either 24p or 24pa -- get recorded? It has to be fed to the tape heads that way. The pulldown gets arranged according to the camera's settings to maintain that interlaced 29.97 frame rate, and the heads dutifully record it.

So I'm not surprised one bit that you're able to remove advanced pulldown from those files. To my way of thinking, that's the way it came out of the camera.

But what REALLY bugs me is that you were willing to potentially p*ss away a good deal of shooting time based on a spur-of-the-moment decision. If you didn't know what was going to happen, you should have run a test.

You got lucky... but if that's the way you run your shoots all the time, you're luck's gonna run out, pal.

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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John Pastuch
Re: DVX100 24p in FCP 7
on Mar 29, 2010 at 6:20:13 pm

My friend, an editor, had shot an entire movie by recording straight to his laptop this way, so I had seen it done before and I figured he knew exactly what to do.

I realize it was dumb and I'm not trying to constantly test my luck or anything. Perhaps it was very stupid to do but I've learned my lesson...I'm not aiming to be lazy on my projects or simply fix them, I'm trying to learn to avoid anything dumb in the future. This stuff is important to me but I'm still a student. I'm not claiming to know it all or anything and I appreciate you taking the time to answer my question.

-John


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