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Why doesn't FCP have an Undo History List?

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Matt Ramphal
Why doesn't FCP have an Undo History List?
on Jan 25, 2010 at 10:37:30 pm

I really hate to complain about a great program, as there probably is a valid reason, but why isn't this feature available? Is there any likelihood of it being introduced in the near future as an update?

As a fairly frequent Photoshop user, I find it to be a great aid, and it's sorely missed in FCP. I regularly find myself second guessing a lot of accidental keystrokes which may have shifted/deleted things, even if slightly, but ever so critically out of place.


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Steve Eisen
Re: Why doesn't FCP have an Undo History List?
on Jan 25, 2010 at 10:52:56 pm

Because it is Apple and not Adobe.

Inside FCP you can send feedback for the features you want. Believe it or not, they do listen.

Steve Eisen
Eisen Video Productions
Vice President
Chicago Final Cut Pro Users Group


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Rafael Amador
Re: Why doesn't FCP have an Undo History List?
on Jan 26, 2010 at 2:01:52 am

And what are the similitudes between photoshop ad FC?
Yes Adobe do that in Photoshop: an application that works with one still.
Why don't you ask them why Premier or AE do not have such a nice option.
Video editors never had any UNDO.
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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Tom Wolsky
Re: Why doesn't FCP have an Undo History List?
on Jan 26, 2010 at 2:05:04 am

Real men don't preview and they don't undo.


All the best,

Tom

Class on Demand DVDs "Complete Training for FCP7," "Basic Training for FCS" and "Final Cut Express Made Easy"
Author: "Final Cut Pro 5 Editing Essentials" and "Final Cut Express 4 Editing Workshop"


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Steve Eisen
Re: Why doesn't FCP have an Undo History List?
on Jan 26, 2010 at 2:29:43 am

I will second that!

Steve Eisen
Eisen Video Productions
Vice President
Chicago Final Cut Pro Users Group


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Why doesn't FCP have an Undo History List?
on Jan 26, 2010 at 4:08:45 am

If you go back far enough, wouldn't they say that real men don't shoot video? ;)


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Tom Wolsky
Re: Why doesn't FCP have an Undo History List?
on Jan 26, 2010 at 9:49:55 am

Absolutely. Playback to check tape, only for wuzes. And this video assist thing on film cameras, that's just for the little girly men.


All the best,

Tom

Class on Demand DVDs "Complete Training for FCP7," "Basic Training for FCS" and "Final Cut Express Made Easy"
Author: "Final Cut Pro 5 Editing Essentials" and "Final Cut Express 4 Editing Workshop"


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Why doesn't FCP have an Undo History List?
on Jan 26, 2010 at 6:13:40 am

[Rafael Amador] "Video editors never had any UNDO. "

Sorry Rafael, but Discreet Edit had up to 99 levels of undo with a complete undo history, and it was end of lifed nearly eight years ago. So, FCP is indeed way, way, way behind on this one.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


A forum host of Creative COW's Apple Final Cut Pro, Business & Marketing, Indie Film & Documentary, and Film History & Appreciations forums.


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Rafael Amador
Re: Why doesn't FCP have an Undo History List?
on Jan 26, 2010 at 11:54:54 am

[David Roth Weiss] "Sorry Rafael, but Discreet Edit had up to 99 levels of undo with a complete undo history, and it was end of lifed nearly eight years ago. So, FCP is indeed way, way, way behind on this one"
David,
When I started with this, video editors still smell glue. and had a cuter in the desk. I don't know if Autodesk did even exist, but UNDO wasn't even in the imagination.
The first thing that you learnt in postproduction, was to plan your steps because normally was no way back. And we see everyday that even the FCs Undo are of not of any help if you have started wrong. Brain is better.
About the Photoshop History, you get basically the same if you use properly the Autosave in FC.
rafael
PS: I did my first edits with these huge desktop U-Matic LB.
No way way to control them: REC and hit the PLAY in the correct moment.
Believe me: with a bit of practice you get frame accuracy.





http://www.nagavideo.com


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walter biscardi
Re: Why doesn't FCP have an Undo History List?
on Jan 26, 2010 at 12:20:01 pm

[Rafael Amador] "When I started with this, video editors still smell glue. and had a cuter in the desk. I don't know if Autodesk did even exist, but UNDO wasn't even in the imagination."

So true. We had two tape decks side by side at CNN. Undo was never heard of, you just started over.

Did you ever work with D2 and the Pre-Read function? You would get about 10 layers into the composite and THEN the Producer would say, "You know that layer we added about 5 layers ago? I'd like to change that....."

I've said for quite some time that Non-Linear Editing systems have saved the life of many a Producer, they just don't realize it.

I've also said that that the best editors I've met are those who started out cutting on linear systems.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

"Foul Water, Fiery Serpent" now in Post.

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Steve Eisen
Re: Why doesn't FCP have an Undo History List?
on Jan 26, 2010 at 1:45:41 pm

[walter biscardi] "I've also said that that the best editors I've met are those who started out cutting on linear systems."

That is because we had to do things manually. I also believe we have a better understanding on how non-linear edit systems work.


Steve Eisen
Eisen Video Productions
Vice President
Chicago Final Cut Pro Users Group


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Why doesn't FCP have an Undo History List?
on Jan 26, 2010 at 4:55:23 pm

[Rafael Amador] "David,
When I started with this, video editors still smell glue. and had a cuter in the desk. I don't know if Autodesk did even exist, but UNDO wasn't even in the imagination."


Rafael,

I think you're about one year older than me, so I was sniffing the same glue you were...

And, if that logic you're using applied to everything, we'd still be painting on cave walls with charcoal, and the only movies would be shadows cast on the walls by firelight.

I hope you get to see Avatar in 3D soon, I think it will remind you that we have progressed a bit since splicing blocks and glue, and that progress isn't all bad.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


A forum host of Creative COW's Apple Final Cut Pro, Business & Marketing, Indie Film & Documentary, and Film History & Appreciations forums.


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Eric Susch
Re: Why doesn't FCP have an Undo History List? - Discreet Edit FTW!
on Jan 28, 2010 at 6:21:34 pm

All ya discreet editors are forgetting the very best thing about the edit undo. Every timeline and bin had it's own SEPARATE undo history so you could go back to a timeline you cut long ago and still have relevant undo.

One thing that bugs me about FCP undo is that it counts changing the timeline zoom as an event but doesn't visually change the zoom when you press CMD-Z. You end up having to undo what are essentially phantom events to get to the relevant event that you are looking for. It ends up being a brain teaser ..."did something change or do I have to push it again? Where the hell am I in the undo/redo."

____________________________________
Eric Susch
http://www.LetsKnit2gether.com
http://www.EricSusch.com
Follow me on twitter @EricSusch


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Matt Ramphal
Re: Why doesn't FCP have an Undo History List?
on Jan 26, 2010 at 6:36:49 am

So despite the numerous advantages Final Cut (and all modern technology) provides, an undo history is asking too much? Seems like a completely reasonable and logical function...but I'm no programmer. I just hope that it's not there for a better reason than any of the ones given here.

I believe, from speaking with a few people, and attempts at googling the topic, that either Premiere, Avid, or another program, have the Undo History list...although I've never used these programs myself.


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Why doesn't FCP have an Undo History List?
on Jan 26, 2010 at 6:47:09 am

[Matt Ramphal] "So despite the numerous advantages Final Cut (and all modern technology) provides, an undo history is asking too much?"

The others are either just being ornery curmudgeons or they are unaware of the benefits of a good undo and a good undo history.

Having edited with both of the above for years, I can tell you all, that they are absolute blessings.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


A forum host of Creative COW's Apple Final Cut Pro, Business & Marketing, Indie Film & Documentary, and Film History & Appreciations forums.


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Reid Caulfield
Re: Why doesn't FCP have an Undo History List?
on Jan 26, 2010 at 7:42:36 am

And how about non-regressive Undo? I use Nuendo as my main pro audio app and it does this. Basically, you can bring up a history of actions and choose which to undo without going back step by step. Very handy.



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Tom Wolsky
Re: Why doesn't FCP have an Undo History List?
on Jan 26, 2010 at 9:48:32 am

The bottom line though is complaining about it here is not going to do much. Send your request to Feedback. Do it early. Do it often.


All the best,

Tom

Class on Demand DVDs "Complete Training for FCP7," "Basic Training for FCS" and "Final Cut Express Made Easy"
Author: "Final Cut Pro 5 Editing Essentials" and "Final Cut Express 4 Editing Workshop"


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Why doesn't FCP have an Undo History List?
on Jan 26, 2010 at 2:30:55 pm

Fcp has 99 levels of undo. I think it's plenty. If you want to try something new, duplicate a timeline and work off the duplicate. If you don't like it, simply go back to the other one.


Wait til you try Color. You have one Undo. Use it wisely.


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walter biscardi
Re: Why doesn't FCP have an Undo History List?
on Jan 26, 2010 at 3:47:01 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Fcp has 99 levels of undo. I think it's plenty. If you want to try something new, duplicate a timeline and work off the duplicate. If you don't like it, simply go back to the other one."

That's precisely what we do here. I honestly have no need for an "Undo" history, we just duplicate timelines when we make changes here and it works really well.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

"Foul Water, Fiery Serpent" now in Post.

Creative Cow Forum Host:
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Blog!

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Chi-Ho Lee
Re: Why doesn't FCP have an Undo History List?
on Jan 26, 2010 at 3:10:39 pm

Matt,

I agree with you 100%. If you look back to FCP v3 or 4, undo history list was one of the top 5 feature requests back then. But people have either forgotten about it, learned to live with this omission, or am just being argumentative here. If we ever get an Undo history list, I doubt any FCP user on this planet would say, "No, this is terrible. Why did they add this? I like guessing what I'm undoing." I've been leaving feedback on apple's site since 2002 about an undo history list. And to be clear, every other NLE out there has an undo list.

If they can't add an undo palette, then at least list the last undo so I can see what i'm undoing one step at a time. But yes, please leave them feedback. Maybe they've blocked my email from their feedback page...lol.

CHL


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Rafael Amador
Re: Why doesn't FCP have an Undo History List?
on Jan 26, 2010 at 4:11:26 pm

Hi Chi-ho Chee,
I thing that UNDO is great when, for example, you have deleted something by mistake.
Our work is normally very repetitive. The actions list normally would be something like: Trim, Trim, trim, or Key-frame-key-frame, key-frame..50 times.
To tweak things and be able to go back, duplicating is the way.
Cheers,
rafael


http://www.nagavideo.com


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Why doesn't FCP have an Undo History List?
on Jan 26, 2010 at 4:23:25 pm

[Rafael Amador] "To tweak things and be able to go back, duplicating is the way."

Sorry, but that's just plain silly. What about that one time you're so focused on some new storytelling technique that you forget? The bottom line is, undo history is a great addition to any app, and anyone arguing against it just doesn't know any better for just one reason, because they've never had it in their editing app. No one who has had an NLE with it would ever give it up.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


A forum host of Creative COW's Apple Final Cut Pro, Business & Marketing, Indie Film & Documentary, and Film History & Appreciations forums.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Why doesn't FCP have an Undo History List?
on Jan 26, 2010 at 4:25:39 pm



http://www.apple.com/feedback/finalcutpro.html


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Herb Sevush
Re: Why doesn't FCP have an Undo History List?
on Jan 26, 2010 at 5:07:42 pm

David -

This is just another case of Final Cut Pro insecurity leading to a false defensiveness. It's amazing how normally reasonable and intelligent people can be in such total denial - it's like dealing with a child - "honey, criticism doesn't mean we don't love you, we're just trying to help you so you can be better."

Yes, you can find ways to work without an Undo History, you can also do great work without a computer, without video, with only one eye and missing a left thumb - but why would you want to?

My first staff job in NY was for a small industrial company. They owned two upright moviolas and the senior editor, Nat Sherman (a great guy and great editor) had never worked on a flatbed. I had learned to edit on a flatbed and used to tell him all the advantages of working that way. Nat always came up with weird justifications for sticking with the old uprights. A big project came up and the director insisted on working with a Steinbeck. We had it delivered and Nat came in over the weekend to get used to it. When the project was finished Nat made the owner buy a flatbed and I had to use the uprights until we bought a second flatbed. Nat refused to ever use an upright again.

There must be a programming reason why Apple hasn't put in an Undo History feature, it's been asked for over and over and it's no secret that many people want it and the rest would love it if they got it. There are many strange quirks in all editing applications, and part of being a professional editor is learning to effectively work around them, but claiming that the quirks are a positive feature is just ridiculous.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions


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walter biscardi
Re: Why doesn't FCP have an Undo History List?
on Jan 26, 2010 at 5:14:32 pm

[Herb Sevush] "This is just another case of Final Cut Pro insecurity leading to a false defensiveness. It's amazing how normally reasonable and intelligent people can be in such total denial - it's like dealing with a child - "honey, criticism doesn't mean we don't love you, we're just trying to help you so you can be better.""

In my case, an Undo History would be about 100 on my list of 100 things I want to see improved with Final Cut Pro. Yes it's something that would be nice, but there are so many other areas I would like to see improved first before something like that. It's so easy to work without this feature.

I would really like to get back the realtime chroma key I had 5 years ago. And the mixed formats in true realtime. Oh and realtime Animation with Alpha playback I had 5 years ago. Oh and the ability to rotate a square box without all the jaggies on the edges like I could do with Media 100 12 years ago.

Give me improvements over system performance and image quality first, then we can deal with little things like "undo history."

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

"Foul Water, Fiery Serpent" now in Post.

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Herb Sevush
Re: Why doesn't FCP have an Undo History List?
on Jan 26, 2010 at 5:39:27 pm

Walter -

n my case, an Undo History would be about 100 on my list of 100 things I want to see improved with Final Cut Pro. Yes it's something that would be nice, but there are so many other areas I would like to see improved first before something like that.


I totally agree with you, and I like your list. I can think of many things (although definitely not 100 things) more important than an Undo History - which doesn't mean that it isn't desirable and shouldn't be implemented if possible.

Give me improvements over system performance and image quality first, then we can deal with little things like "undo history."

This shows how variable are the needs of editors working with Final Cut. I almost never do chroma keys and never spin boxes, my "most wanted" list is strongest in the digitizing, media managing, and editing productivity area, so the Undo History request would be higher on my list than yours.

What I objected to is the tone of many of the earlier posts that suggest that since there are ways around the problem then it's a ridiculous request. It isn't, it's a programming weakness of Final Cut that they can't do this. It's not life threatening, not the biggest problem, not a deal breaker - but that doesn't mean that it's a foolish idea.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions


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Chi-Ho Lee
Re: Why doesn't FCP have an Undo History List?
on Jan 26, 2010 at 5:50:46 pm

Herb,

True dat. I remember when cars didn't have a passenger side rear mirror. Sure every could drive a car pretty safe without one. But there came a point when it was a given that every car would have that passenger mirror. But I'm sure someone here will write in that they don't even need four wheels on their car. They're perfectly happy and safe and actually much more efficient driving a car with only three wheels.

It's 2010 and one of the industry standard editing software in the world can't even tell you what you're undoing. It's a shame. It's safe to guess that it has to do with some underlying coding issues. But it's time to dig deep and fix this missing functionality. I'd much rather have an undo list than alpha transitions.

CHL

Chi-Ho Lee
Film & Television Editor
Apple Certified Final Cut Pro Trainer
http://www.chiholee.com


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Why doesn't FCP have an Undo History List?
on Jan 26, 2010 at 5:59:20 pm

[Herb Sevush] "it's a programming weakness of Final Cut that they can't do this. It's not life threatening, not the biggest problem, not a deal breaker - but that doesn't mean that it's a foolish idea."

Herb and I both lived with the luxury of Discreet Edit's undo list. To us it was not a luxury at all at the time, nothing that took the place of other necessities, just the product of smart coders who designed a smart feature-rich app without the need for all the workarounds. BTW, much of what made FC truly professional, such as the RT engine added in version 5, was written into the code by the chief Edit coder who was hired away from the Edit team.

And, for the record, Edit also tied things such as scratch disk location and video format to the preferences of individual projects rather than to the overall application preferences. Anyone care to argue that fixing that similarly in FCP would be a mistake?

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


A forum host of Creative COW's Apple Final Cut Pro, Business & Marketing, Indie Film & Documentary, and Film History & Appreciations forums.


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walter biscardi
Re: Why doesn't FCP have an Undo History List?
on Jan 26, 2010 at 6:03:42 pm

[David Roth Weiss] "And, for the record, Edit also tied things such as scratch disk location and video format to the preferences of individual projects rather than to the overall application preferences. Anyone care to argue that fixing that similarly in FCP would be a mistake?"

Media 100 had that and a much better way of doing media management than FCP ever has. But then we're moving on to a completely different topic.

But given my druthers, you won't get me to move to another NLE platform at this time. At some point maybe, but certainly not right now. The pluses far outweigh the minuses with FCP.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

"Foul Water, Fiery Serpent" now in Post.

Creative Cow Forum Host:
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David Roth Weiss
Re: Why doesn't FCP have an Undo History List?
on Jan 26, 2010 at 6:16:31 pm

[walter biscardi] "you won't get me to move to another NLE platform at this time. At some point maybe, but certainly not right now. The pluses far outweigh the minuses with FCP. "

No one is arguing that.

The only argument is whether a better undo is actually better, and since Herb and I actually had the capability for years, it would be impossible for those of you who have never had it to convince us that it's not a significant improvement.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


A forum host of Creative COW's Apple Final Cut Pro, Business & Marketing, Indie Film & Documentary, and Film History & Appreciations forums.


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walter biscardi
Re: Why doesn't FCP have an Undo History List?
on Jan 26, 2010 at 6:24:33 pm

[David Roth Weiss] "The only argument is whether a better undo is actually better, and since Herb and I actually had the capability for years, it would be impossible for those of you who have never had it to convince us that it's not a significant improvement."

I still put it at "would be nice, but not something I'm going to write Apple about."

I have to agree with Raffy on this one. Undo History, if it's like Photoshop, just means you can step back to a certain point and start again. I have my Undo set to 50 so I can step back very quickly with Apple Z. In After Effects I leave it set to 99.

So it would be very difficult for me to call "Undo History" a significant improvement since it's just a variation on what we already have and it's something I hardly use at all in Photoshop. Different folks need different things, but this is something that if it was released, it would be a "that's nice, but did you fix Media Management yet? Can I do an offline / online workflow without the need to hope and pray Media Manager actually does its job? Is there a reason why you can't design the offline / online workflow to be as simple as Select timeline, Select Codec, Redigitize ONLY that material in the timeline (like Media 100 has done since 1996 at least)."

anyway, enough of that, I'm obviously on the side of "would be nice, but not significant." Y'all have fun!

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

"Foul Water, Fiery Serpent" now in Post.

Creative Cow Forum Host:
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Blog!

Twitter!


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Chi-Ho Lee
Re: Why doesn't FCP have an Undo History List?
on Jan 26, 2010 at 6:42:08 pm

[David Roth Weiss] "since Herb and I actually had the capability for years, "

Not only on the Discreet. Avid had it for years. My use for it is not exactly to undo 30 steps at once but for it to tell me what i am undoing! I have to watch the timeline like a hawk one slow undo at a time and many times I can't see what it is undoing because the actions are small. But if it tells me "Undo trim 4 frames" or "Undo mark out" or "Undo replace edit" then I know 100% what it is undo-ing. It's a everyday time saver.

CHL

Chi-Ho Lee
Film & Television Editor
Apple Certified Final Cut Pro Trainer
http://www.chiholee.com


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Rafael Amador
Re: Why doesn't FCP have an Undo History List?
on Jan 26, 2010 at 5:50:56 pm

David my friend,
If you want to change that cropping that the "history window" says you made 20 steps before?
Will you use the UNDO to correct it and lose the last 19 edits?
No sense.
A history list, the only thing that would helps you is to don't need to count how many times you need to hit Comm-Z.
It would be great if you could eliminate just a precise action in the middle of the list, but not all the fallowing.
Really I don't see any advantage. Just one more window.
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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Matt Ramphal
Re: Why doesn't FCP have an Undo History List?
on Jan 26, 2010 at 5:43:56 pm

Clearly the underlying reason for wanting an undo history list is for situations where you've done something by mistake.

I'm working on a huge timeline, viewing it on a small computer screen, and often get a sense, for example, that perhaps while scrolling through the timeline, I may have dragged and dropped something out of place, even ever so slightly, but still critically out of place. Or like you mentioned hit the delete key unintentionally...the list of possibilities goes on. I'm not talking about second guessing creative or practical decisions.

Since nothing we are working on is actually physically in front of you, it's very easy to miss a crucial misstep like this, only to realize much later, and thus create more unnecessary work.

For clarification, this was originally a question and not a complaint, so no offense to the software intended. I had assumed that it was a clear programming hurdle that I didn't understand, not considering the possibility that is was the preference of some veteran editors.


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Dennis Radeke
Re: Why doesn't FCP have an Undo History List?
on Jan 27, 2010 at 11:05:34 am

Premiere Pro (like many Adobe apps) does have a history panel. However, I'm usually removing it from the interface myself.


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