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29.97 HDV to 23.98 ProResLT?

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William Carr
29.97 HDV to 23.98 ProResLT?
on Jan 23, 2010 at 11:26:18 pm

Documentary project. Here's the rundown and the problem:

-- 5 different format HD cameras shot festival event (different subjects for each camera)
-- All cameras shot 23.98 except a Sony HDV at 29.97 (1080i60)
-- Successfully captured/transferred and converted all clips to ProResLT 23.98 720 for my edit, EXCEPT the Sony HDV 29.97 clips (about 3hrs.)
-- 75% of project is 23.98 so I'd rather not uprate everything to match that one camera's clips
-- Final product will be a DVD

Trying to convert the 1080i:
-- With various Compressor settings to "Better" and "Best" as per Ken Stone, and "Set Duration to: 100% of source", a 1min clip conversion took 30min and played kinda steppy (handheld doc footage). Unless my math is way off, that'd be about 90 hours of conversion (so I'd best get started?!)

--I don't own AE, and I'm not Motion-savvy
-- Read through older posts but cannot wrap my head around best in-house solution

Concluding:
--Someone told me to do this with those clips: 29.97--->60P---->23.98. Make sense?
--I think Nattress Standards Conversion might help me? (I don't see this specific rate conversion listed in features)

Does anyone have a down-rate method with decent results in the comfort of their own studio?
Thanks for listening!



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John Fishback
Re: 29.97 HDV to 23.98 ProResLT?
on Jan 23, 2010 at 11:52:17 pm

I'm familiar with turning on Frame Controls in Compressor. Probably the only control that needs to be BEST is Rate Conversion. Leave Resize and Deinterlace at the default settings. It takes a while because HDV is a long-GOP codec and even with your Mac Pro it's going to take some time. It's smart to do a short test encode. If you were able to back off Resize and Deinterlace try another test and, hopefully, the speed improves.

John

MacPro 8-core 2.8GHz 8 GB RAM OS 10.5.8 QT7.6.4 Kona 3 Dual Cinema 23 ATI Radeon HD 3870, 24" TV-Logic Monitor, ATTO ExpressSAS R380 RAID Adapter, PDE enclosure with 8-drive 6TB RAID 5
FCS 3 (FCP 7.0.1, Motion 4.0.1, Comp 3.5.1, DVDSP 4.2.2, Color 1.5.1)

Pro Tools HD w SYNC IO, Yamaha DM1000, Millennia Media HV-3C, Neumann U87, Schoeps Mk41 mics, Genelec Monitors, PrimaLT ISDN


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William Carr
Re: 29.97 HDV to 23.98 ProResLT?
on Jan 24, 2010 at 12:24:39 am


Thanks, John. I revised the filter settings as suggested and the conversion was much faster. The image quality was as good but the steppy motion just as bad.

Is it worth trying a plug-in from somebody?


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William Carr
Re: 29.97 HDV to 23.98 ProResLT?
on Jan 24, 2010 at 1:26:45 am

So far this Compressor workflow is best and I don't know why:

1) HDV 1080i clips >> DVCPROHD 720p60
2) DVCPROHD 720p60 >> ProRes LT 23.98 at 1280x720, Retime 100% of Source

Still steppy, so I look forward to opinions if any 3rd party app/plug-in will be better.



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Steve Eisen
Re: 29.97 HDV to 23.98 ProResLT?
on Jan 24, 2010 at 2:33:34 am

This is a good example where an HD capture card/IO could be used to save time and money. The capture card would do the conversion in real time.

Steve Eisen
Eisen Video Productions
Vice President
Chicago Final Cut Pro Users Group


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William Carr
Re: 29.97 HDV to 23.98 ProResLT?
on Jan 24, 2010 at 2:53:42 am

But, would the frame rate conversion quality be better than software? And if yes-- just so I learn-- why?


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John Fishback
Re: 29.97 HDV to 23.98 ProResLT?
on Jan 24, 2010 at 3:24:34 am

A cross-convert with hardware like a Kona 3 would work very well with material at the same frame rate. But it won't work with different frame rates. For that you need hardware like a Teranex.

John

MacPro 8-core 2.8GHz 8 GB RAM OS 10.5.8 QT7.6.4 Kona 3 Dual Cinema 23 ATI Radeon HD 3870, 24" TV-Logic Monitor, ATTO ExpressSAS R380 RAID Adapter, PDE enclosure with 8-drive 6TB RAID 5
FCS 3 (FCP 7.0.1, Motion 4.0.1, Comp 3.5.1, DVDSP 4.2.2, Color 1.5.1)

Pro Tools HD w SYNC IO, Yamaha DM1000, Millennia Media HV-3C, Neumann U87, Schoeps Mk41 mics, Genelec Monitors, PrimaLT ISDN


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William Carr
Re: 29.97 HDV to 23.98 ProResLT?
on Jan 24, 2010 at 3:51:34 am

Thanks for reply... this project has to stay in-house for budget reasons, so it seems like my best option is to bring the majority of footage up from 23.98 to match that single camera's 1080i frame rate, since that will be the smoothest overall result.


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John Fishback
Re: 29.97 HDV to 23.98 ProResLT?
on Jan 24, 2010 at 4:10:34 am

I've not done this, but I believe a Kona will add pulldown to a 23.976 clip to arrive at 29.97 in real time. Hopefully, someone else will confirm that or shoot it down.

John

MacPro 8-core 2.8GHz 8 GB RAM OS 10.5.8 QT7.6.4 Kona 3 Dual Cinema 23 ATI Radeon HD 3870, 24" TV-Logic Monitor, ATTO ExpressSAS R380 RAID Adapter, PDE enclosure with 8-drive 6TB RAID 5
FCS 3 (FCP 7.0.1, Motion 4.0.1, Comp 3.5.1, DVDSP 4.2.2, Color 1.5.1)

Pro Tools HD w SYNC IO, Yamaha DM1000, Millennia Media HV-3C, Neumann U87, Schoeps Mk41 mics, Genelec Monitors, PrimaLT ISDN


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William Carr
Re: 29.97 HDV to 23.98 ProResLT?
on Jan 24, 2010 at 4:51:45 am

Would a Kona card apply its conversions to existing media or must their be a signal coming in?


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Shane Ross
Re: 29.97 HDV to 23.98 ProResLT?
on Jan 24, 2010 at 6:39:40 am

The Kona card cannot convert frame rates on ingest. Only those with similar frequencies...like 59.94 to 29.97, or 29.97 to 59.94. You cannot do 29.97 to 23.98. For that you need to use Compressor.

[William Carr] "Would a Kona card apply its conversions to existing media or must their be a signal coming in? "

Must be an incoming or outgoing signal. This is a capture card, it processes signals. Once the files have been captured, the only options are software.



Shane



GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Alan Okey
Re: 29.97 HDV to 23.98 ProResLT?
on Jan 24, 2010 at 4:57:40 am

[William Carr] "--Someone told me to do this with those clips: 29.97--->60P---->23.98. Make sense? "

It is completely unnecessary to first go to 60p. Simply go directly from 1080i 29.97 to 720p24 in Compressor using the settings detailed below.

[William Carr] "--I think Nattress Standards Conversion might help me? (I don't see this specific rate conversion listed in features)
"


You don't need it in this instance.

[William Carr] "Does anyone have a down-rate method with decent results in the comfort of their own studio? "

See below.

Use the following settings in Compressor for high quality 1080i/29.97 to 720p24 conversions:

1. Choose the following encoding preset:

Apple > Formats > QuickTime > Apple ProRes 422

2. In the Inspector tab, click on the Encoder button, then click on the Video: Settings button



3. In the Compression Settings window, choose ProRes 422 (not HQ) and change the frame rate to custom - 23.976



4. Click on the Frame Controls button and make sure your settings match the image below.



5. Click on the Geometry button and make sure your settings match those in the image below.



The results should be very good using this method.


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Rafael Amador
Re: 29.97 HDV to 23.98 ProResLT?
on Jan 24, 2010 at 1:19:53 pm

I would make a test first with the Re-timing filter in "Better".
Optical Flow (BEST) is great, but in excess, as often Compressor does, IMHO may kills the picture.
Optical Flow rebuilds the whole picture while BETTER try to keep as much as possible from the original stuff.
Rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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Alan Okey
Re: 29.97 HDV to 23.98 ProResLT?
on Jan 24, 2010 at 4:25:40 pm

[Rafael Amador] "I would make a test first with the Re-timing filter in "Better". "

Rafael is correct, I forgot to change the setting in the screen capture. "Better" produces good results with a significant decrease in processing time.



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William Carr
Re: 29.97 HDV to 23.98 ProResLT?
on Jan 24, 2010 at 6:43:31 pm

Thank you very much Shane, Alan and Rafael!
I really appreciate all the knowledge, it adds to our skillsets and creates progress.

I tried the indicated Compressor settings and the image quality results were great. However since this specific job's clips are all very spontaneous handheld action situations, the stutter/steppy result is very painful on the eye.

After much testing with timelines and variables, I am about to bring all of the 23.98 clips to 59.94, which produce smoother results than 29.97. And those darned original 29.97 clips are of course also fine motion-wise in 59.94.

Yes, my media files will be huge by comparison, but for a project that expects the audience to watch an hour of handheld action, smoother is better.



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